The salesman can't make you sign a waiver. You have a choice not to take delivery if the spec has changed.
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[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance
- Thread starter randompixel
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JupiterMan
Active Member
I was informed that my forthcoming MY will not have USS and also may not have autopark/summon available immediately.
But yes, if autopark never materialises then Tesla would be liable, but I'm sure it will - Tesla will not have got to the remove hardware decision without being entirely confident in their new approach, it will have been tested and correlated against USS, it's just that we have not seen it yet.
It will be interesting to see how they deal with the reliability of the cameras, although of course the USS sensors can also be subject to dirt/mud eroding signal. Also remember that the side repeater cameras also look back so this information will also be fed into the calculations, it is not just the rear camera.
We'll see how this goes, but it is not impossible that the new Vision implementation will present better performance for cars over USS - we will have to wait and see - but for all the doom sayers on this site, we have to at times remember this I think.
'Immediately'.... The issue is Elon's promises when it comes to timeframes. Full self driving on city streets was promised for what, 2019?
And Robotaxi fleet by the end of last year? ...
He is a terrific salesman. Convincing, builds enthusiasm, makes the fear of missing out a prime reason why lots of people buy or lease his car company's products.
Except it is feeling far more like double glazing now, and moving toward being an outright fraud on his credulous marks.
“Coming soon” is the Tesla slogan.
I hope, for once, the release does include software that does a half credible job at parking sensors, my worry is parking sensors aren’t like auto wipers that just annoy you and you can over ride them, get a parking sensor wrong and you’ll hit something. All makes of car say things like ‘don’t rely on the sensors’ but in practice they’re pretty predictable and mistakes are understood.
I hope, for once, the release does include software that does a half credible job at parking sensors, my worry is parking sensors aren’t like auto wipers that just annoy you and you can over ride them, get a parking sensor wrong and you’ll hit something. All makes of car say things like ‘don’t rely on the sensors’ but in practice they’re pretty predictable and mistakes are understood.
Had them on a Peugeot 307cc for 16 years. Really need them, as the car has a notoriously huge boot(y). Can only recall 2 occasions in all those years that they failed - heavy snow buildup, and one that got really dirty on a farm track. Saved me no end of knocks I am sure, as once I got used to them could get to within 2 cm of a car, wall or door. If Tesla can't recreate something as trivial as a £5 sensor, then vision is clearly not something I would trust my family's safety with at 70mph on a busy motorway.
Ehhhh I agree to a point, but a kettle's singular purpose is to boil water. If it can't do that then it's arguably not even a kettle in any practical sense.
A more logical analogy might be if they said that the lid no longer opens and that they're working on a new way to fill it up but in the meantime you'll have to pour water down the spout suboptimally.
Don't get me wrong - I think the decision is stupid and premature, and driven by chasing higher and higher margins rather than because they believe they are anywhere close to delivering parity with cameras (it would still be wrong if it wasn't ready on day one in my opinion). I don't think it is black and white in this case though, not when customers are given the choice to proceed with the order, and have to explicitly choose to do so. I would not be surprised if there was legal advice taken in creating that prompt.
Indeed, or where people have come from different cars where it's just worked. In the case of USS pretty much every single customer will have been coming from something that had them, and they would have relied on them to a greater or lesser extent.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit more cavalier in situations where it's just me and potential obstacles, using USS to guide me when doing the final bit of reversing without even really looking in the mirrors. Again, this is on a drive where it's just me parking up, but it's still not great driving, but I would suggest I'm not alone in relying on the beeps without realising it.
Zilla91
Active Member
Yes, I believe I'm repeating myself, but Tesla's claim is that Vision is able to perform the same tasks as USS.
Yet those are non existent on day 1. (See the irony already..). And they are therefore shipping cars where the features customers have paid for are 'temporarily' disabled.
All the legal challenge will be in this 'temporarily' that customers are asked to consent to when they sign the no-USS waiver and what constitutes a "reasonable timeframe expectation" for restoring those features, with at least the same level of functionality than older cars.
Personally I would set it to ~6 months. Any longer than that the lawsuits will be coming for the undue delay and what are in essence missold features and false advertising.
Excuse me guys need some info .
My car is coming with uss on it so according to tesla and I've never been asked to agree to accepting without it like so many on here .
so will the use on my car continue to work or are tesla going to shut it down on all cars with uss and swith all cars to this vision ? .
Tia
My car is coming with uss on it so according to tesla and I've never been asked to agree to accepting without it like so many on here .
so will the use on my car continue to work or are tesla going to shut it down on all cars with uss and swith all cars to this vision ? .
Tia
I'm not sure there is an answer to that important question yet. Existing car owners with USS did not agree to have the feature removed or downgraded, so they must surely have valid grounds to require / demand no negative change in functionality, imo that includes any new dependency on problematic cameras that get obscured for various reasons.
I'm not even sure where UK cars are wrt radar operation. I just don't see how car specs can be changed without owners’ consents or even prior clear cut justification for any changes.
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If it’s like radar, it will use them for a while, maybe a year, and when there’s an alternative, they’ll stop using them. But nobody really knows for sure.
Thats answered in the FAQs at Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision although it leaves room for amendment in the future.
Tesla's weasle words give me no comfort at all.
"Compared to radar-equipped vehicles, Model 3 and Model Y with Tesla Vision have either maintained or improved their active safety ratings in the US and Europe,.....”
And where does that leave Model S / X? How can they commit to disable part of my car before they appear to have an equivalent or better solution? And they haven't stated what it is that justifies or requires them to make any changes at all! Are they saying that equipped with radar the car has critical safety issues that demand a solution?
Regarding radar removal, how do I know / find out what TV-dependent functions become restricted or unavailable when cameras are obscured to some degree? How do I know that TV aeb is available under the same conditions as radar based would have been?
Is there any test documentation available that tracks the retrospective replacement of existing (approved?) safety related systems with (less functional? unapproved?) alternative designs?
Does an owner's choice to avoid installation of any given software update potentially leave their car non-type tested? Would a PB event involving a car not running latest software that caused an accident be the owner's fault? And we all know how consistent OTA update timing is!
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I have been trying to work out who is worth asking. I don't need to be told that whatever they do to my car it will be in spec. Or just get any meaningless, patronising platitudes that happen to come to my correspondent's mind. Expecting a binding and official response from Tesla is not realistic.
In principle, you should never buy a product on future promise, especially if it is software. When I bought my MS back in 2020 I added FSD based on its functionality at that time and I was OK with it.
Now, removing existing functionality was not really considered/factored in my decision. Live and learn.
Now, removing existing functionality was not really considered/factored in my decision. Live and learn.
This is normal behaviour for any consumer facing business. Ditch the expensive customer service team, just employ lawyers instead to answer reasonable questions.
Well, when the banks slowly start to enforce their collateral as yet another of Musk's hare brained schemes leads to his losing control over Tesla, we might get some semblance of a reasonable customer focus. Until then, treat your Tesla like it's on loan from Musk personally.
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