Why are TACC, AP (and ?FSD) so bad?

[OxBrew]

Don't know how to answer that, except RTFM.
Also, if a wheel weight is not supposed to be used for hands-off driving, why do people still use them?
If you're required to keep your hands on the wheel, why do people post videos of themselves sleeping or having sex while driving?
People do so many stupid things that make it difficult for the rest of us, regardless of guidelines, manuals and common sense.

Except this whole thing is a "you're holding it wrong" misunderstanding.

It's like you made a gun where the handle was the barrel and the bullets came out of the handle. The manual says you have to hold it by the barrel and aim the handle at the target.

Why do I keep shooting myself in the foot???


RTFM!!!

Good design is self evident, no manual required.

 

[PVia]

My reply in the quote you posted was meant to answer the use of AP on roads that are not specified in the manual, NOT about holding the wheel.

 

[OxBrew]

My reply in the quote you posted was meant to answer the use of AP on roads that are not specified in the manual, NOT about holding the wheel.

Same difference. It looks like a duck, it lets you use it like a duck, it's a duck.

 

[PVia]

No, you see, that's the problem. Just because it's called Autopilot doesn't mean you can use it everywhere.
Or are you talking about the wheel issue?
I'm sure there are thousands of Tesla drivers who don't have an issue with wheel nags. I'm one of them. There are others who do. So, what is it about their cars (or possibly habits) that they keep getting them? Is it a software issue for them or is it something else?
I don't deny that drivers have steering wheel issues. What is that percentage and why is it happening for some and not others?

 

[OxBrew]

No, you see, that's the problem. Just because it's called Autopilot doesn't mean you can use it everywhere.

lol, that's my problem. If Tesla calls it Auto Pilot, and lets you use it everywhere, but it does not work everywhere, then that's on Tesla.

It's like they perched a swing set on the edge of a cliff, and put a small sign in the corner saying to use it, first move it a safe distance away from the cliff.

Never mind. The courts will figure it out, eventually.

 

[Mr. Michael]

When you have no legal or pr departments (at least with any influence), then when you name a product something it clearly isn’t, it becomes problematic. Call people crazy, but if you keep hammering full self driving at them (none of which is close to true),they may believe you and be disappointed when the truth becomes obvious.

 

[PVia]

lol, that's my problem. If Tesla calls it Auto Pilot, and lets you use it everywhere, but it does not work everywhere, then that's on Tesla.

It's like they perched a swing set on the edge of a cliff, and put a small sign in the corner saying to use it, first move it a safe distance away from the cliff.

Never mind. The courts will figure it out, eventually.

I understand the frame of your argument, but I see the analogy like this: FSDb or Autopilot is the swing set - the cliff's edge is city or highway traffic - the sign is the manual that tells you to use it safely with your hands on the wheel and in which situation each is designed to work.

 

[cbdoc]

My 2018 drove far better on AP than my current 2022. The biggest issue I have is the super late braking when traffic is slow ahead: the car is still flying until it has to slam on the brakes- several near misses with cars behind me having to slam even harder on their brakes.

 

[paaltio]

The radar removal really stings for me with my 2019. I've just had to laugh at times when the wipers come on for no reason at all while driving at night with street lighting, and keep going at it. Some tiny specks on the windshield (probably, I can't tell) look like raindrops to the cameras is my best guess, and it'll just wipe the whole trip for no reason if I want to use AP.

Forced automatic high beams also break local traffic laws (they turn on in areas with street lighting, which is not allowed) and blind pedestrians in doing so. At least I can turn them off by pushing the left stalk. So enabling AP at night is two stalk presses now instead of one. But at least I can kludge my way around that. Nothing I can do about the wipers.

Also in perfectly clear conditions using the windshield washer will make AP freak out sometimes, giving the "Autopilot speed limited due to poor visibility" error and slowing down for no reason at all.

Really wish I could get the radar AP version back, because now this is objectively so much worse than it was before. Holding out hope when the V11 stack replaces regular AP that this improves. Although I don't think FSD Beta has any more recent rain neural nets or different high beam logic? So probably won't make a difference at this point.

 

[mspohr]

The radar removal really stings for me with my 2019. I've just had to laugh at times when the wipers come on for no reason at all while driving at night with street lighting, and keep going at it. Some tiny specks on the windshield (probably, I can't tell) look like raindrops to the cameras is my best guess, and it'll just wipe the whole trip for no reason if I want to use AP.

Forced automatic high beams also break local traffic laws (they turn on in areas with street lighting, which is not allowed) and blind pedestrians in doing so. At least I can turn them off by pushing the left stalk. So enabling AP at night is two stalk presses now instead of one. But at least I can kludge my way around that. Nothing I can do about the wipers.

Also in perfectly clear conditions using the windshield washer will make AP freak out sometimes, giving the "Autopilot speed limited due to poor visibility" error and slowing down for no reason at all.

Really wish I could get the radar AP version back, because now this is objectively so much worse than it was before. Holding out hope when the V11 stack replaces regular AP that this improves. Although I don't think FSD Beta has any more recent rain neural nets or different high beam logic? So probably won't make a difference at this point.

I guess we can hope that the v11 stack will improve AP and TACC.

 

[DrChaos]

Although I don't think FSD Beta has any more recent rain neural nets or different high beam logic? So probably won't make a difference at this point.

In the US, the high beam logic has been fixed very effectively in an update a few months ago. I now have no complaints. But there isn't any law I know about regarding street lighting here. Sometimes if it's bright enough with street lighting it will stay off high beams, but sometimes it turns on. It's clearly optimized to avoid other car lights and ignore stationary lights. I believe that the designers didn't know about your law literally. I wish there were some way to talk to them other than twitter.

Rain can't be fully fixed, as it needs a physical sensor. It doesn't work well with intermediate light rain, only binary heavy or none like in California. As I'm there, it's OK for me but not for other climates.

 

[paaltio]

In the US, the high beam logic has been fixed very effectively in an update a few months ago. I now have no complaints. But there isn't any law I know about regarding street lighting here. Sometimes if it's bright enough with street lighting it will stay off high beams, but sometimes it turns on. It's clearly optimized to avoid other car lights and ignore stationary lights. I believe that the designers didn't know about your law literally. I wish there were some way to talk to them other than twitter.

Rain can't be fully fixed, as it needs a physical sensor. It doesn't work well with intermediate light rain, only binary heavy or none like in California. As I'm there, it's OK for me but not for other climates.

The high beams themselves work much better, i.e. they don't flash oncoming cars anymore. The same improvements were shipped globally. It's just it has no adjustments for local traffic laws.

There are certainly some examples of them implementing non-US traffic laws, e.g. NoAP correctly refuses to pass on the right. Although that's very widely legislated in the EU so that's probably the reason it got development time, whereas the "no high beams with street lighting" law is rarer I think.

But currently it seems anything that's not directly FSD Beta related has been halted anyway for the past couple of years, so I don't think they are doing any regional traffic policy improvements right now. It's all way down on the todo list until they can declare FSD done (whatever that means).

Again hoping FSD V11 opens the floodgates for AP improvements.

 

[Twiglett]

Regarding FSDb (44.30.10) on windy two-lane roads, it's much better at staying in the lane and I don't think I've had a single forward collision warning when using it.

It does a cute thing I've not seen before: When a semi approaches when on a curve, the car goes out of the lane a little bit, toward the shoulder. Better than braking!

FSDb is dramatically better on regular roads than AP is. Its issues are that all of the controls from AP are missing, so you can't choose a configuration to stop it from suddenly deciding to signal left to move into the left lane and immediately start to move, you have to take over which just causes your passengers to lurch left/right.
It also tries to stop for flashing yellow warning lights on a 70mph highway.

I guess we can hope that the v11 stack will improve AP and TACC.

FSDb behaviour replacing current AP is my nightmare. All the stupid "5th grader at the wheel" stuff that FSDb does but happening at 70mph fills me with dread. The highway is no place for timid indecision. Waiting for 45 seconds at an empty 4way stop is one thing, acting like that at a fast highway intersection is an accident waiting to happen.
Today I had one the of the best AP days in a while, no PB, no silly lane changes, just a smooth one hour ride home without concern. Really nice. But that's AP not FSDb
One thing to consider though. Current AP and older APs were smoother because they just couldn't "see" the world around them fully, so they didn't react to the insanity around them because they just couldn't see it. Now FSDb stack is out, it can register so much more, so is now including that information.
My concern is that instead of it getting better that it instead just becomes more timid and useless. You know that will happen to start with and I'm not sure I want to be part of that. The blissful ignorance of AP1 & AP2 seems appealing.

 

[drtimhill]

I'm in SoCal, and for the last few months the AP on freeways has been great for me and better than versions a few months ago. It can go through decent enough off-ramps and freeway interchanges and it selects a reasonable enough speed.

Phantom braking is mild (not full screeching stop) and less and less frequent.

Something doesn't sound right, for crowded California freeways, it should work well. At a minimum try recalibrating the cameras.

The OP has not stated what roads he is using AP/TACC on, nor the curves etc.

 

[mspohr]

The OP has not stated what roads he is using AP/TACC on, nor the curves etc.

The trip was from Lake Tahoe to Death Valley. US395 (mostly 4 lane divided highway) and California 190 (two lane steep and winding).

 

[drtimhill]

The trip was from Lake Tahoe to Death Valley. US395 (mostly 4 lane divided highway) and California 190 (two lane steep and winding).

190 is pushing it for AP/TACC .. as noted in the manual really AP/TACC is designed for divided highways and reasonably straight roads. You need FSDb to handle winding and more complex roads.

 

[derotam]

It sets itself to the posted speed limit but seems to ignore the yellow curve suggested speed signs

From my experience, I don't believe(well I know), that FSDb does NOT apply speed limits by visually reading speed limit signs. My personal proof is two standard speed limit signs that AP and TACC do not react too.

As far as navigating sharp curves, it has always been a crap shoot whether the car appropriately slows down for a given curve. Personally I think they should train the software using some kind of baseline speed for a given curvature(based on map data). It would have to use map data to apply the "correct" speed at an appropriate time. The car should also be slowing down AHEAD of a reduction in speed, before it gets to the reduced speed limit signs too.

 

[PianoAl]

FSDb behaviour replacing current AP is my nightmare

Right. AP is four years old, but it's also battle tested and debugged. Protected highways are simpler than city streets though.

We'll see.

 

[drtimhill]

From my experience, I don't believe(well I know), that FSDb does NOT apply speed limits by visually reading speed limit signs. My personal proof is two standard speed limit signs that AP and TACC do not react too.

no, FSDb DOES read speed limit signs .. but only the mandatory ones not the advisory (yellow) ones.

 

[mspohr]

no, FSDb DOES read speed limit signs .. but only the mandatory ones not the advisory (yellow) ones.

I think it would improve AP and FSD if it would read the yellow "advice" signs.