FSD Beta 10.69

[sleepydoc]

Today’s strange failure - left turn from an stoplight onto a 4-lane road and 2 blocks later a right turn. When the light turned green, the beta hesitated for some reason, so I gave the accelerator a nudge and the car took off with too much speed as if it was making an unprotected left onto a fast-moving road. After the left turn, instead of merging into the right lane to prepare for the right turn, the beta planned a path into the left turn lane at the next intersection. I wanted to see if it would correct itself since the navigation was correct from the moment I engaged the beta, but it started to swerve into the turn lane while accelerating more so I disengaged.

I had an odd fail and a success (of sorts) today.

There’s a section or road that’s been closed over the summer. It was apparently supposed to open this week (tell the city that!) because Tesla maps started routing on the closed section of the road. I decided to see what would happen - FSD came up to the stoplight with large ‘road closed’ barriers and piles of dirt readily visible on the far side of the intersection. FSD started to go straight through the intersection. I took over because there were other cars around and I didn’t want to confuse or cause issues for them But I wonder what it would have done had I not taken over.

The success was on a road that has a center lane reserved for turning. FSD has never used this and instead would wait until The formal turn lane started, then dart into it rather suddenly (and a bit too late,) roughly following the red line in the picture. Today it actually did the ‘natural’ move and moved over sooner, following the green line.

 

[PACEMD]

FSBb slows down more gradually at speed limit signs as well as for manual intervention.

I'm actually a fan of a gradual slowdown for the signs. In the early days of FSDb, it was much more aggressive with the signs that I frequently thought it was phantom braking. It was not comfortable, and it's not how a human would slow if it saw a speed change. But humans also might start decelerating a bit earlier than the sign, whereas the car does it right at the sign. If they start decelerating before the sign, I think the current decel is perfect.

But I don't agree that a manual speed intervention should match the deceleration (or acceleration) of the signs. My intervention should carry more urgency, because I know something the car doesn't (hence the intervention), and the car should go back to AP-level aggressiveness of matching the set speed.

Right, but any "my interventions" using cruise control is virtually the same. So maybe a level of desired aggression you could set, like the chill and sport settings........

 

[nvx1977]

Right, but any "my interventions" using cruise control is virtually the same. So maybe a level of desired aggression you could set, like the chill and sport settings........

In this case I think there exists an accel/decel that would satisfy most people. As a product designer (not for Tesla), I am wary about making too many things user-configurable. The settings page can get unmanageable fast. It's a delicate balance.

 

[archae86]

I'm firmly in the camp of those who hold that the current FDSb behavior regarding reductions in speed limit is that it starts too late (right at the change in limit) and uses considerably too gradual a deceleration profile. And I do think it is adhering to a specific profile. I have an uphill speed limit reduction, and watching the power/regen bar you can see it is actually spending traction power to keep the speed from dropping faster.

My mitigation for this case is to scroll down the limit well before the sign. How far before depends on the traffic behind me. If I saw a cop I'd just disengage and use manual control.

 

[powertoold]

When the speed limit changes from 50 to 35, I'd say most humans would take at least 10 seconds to slow down. (going 55 to 40)

 

[KArnold]

Agreed @archae86, the point more being awareness.

1. Both of the above need additional corrections. And

2. Currently when using NAP (highways, etc.) the car will decelerate at different rates compared to FSD. It's much more slowely in FSDB.

 

[KArnold]

But humans also might start decelerating a bit earlier than the sign, whereas the car does it right at the sign. If they start decelerating before the sign, I think the current decel is perfect.

With FSDB today? I'm all for personal preferences and all, but as soon as I detected a change in speed limit, rolled down the speed setting - I'm a good ways down the road before that 10 MPH reduction is realized. Well past the new speed limit or school zone.

I really hope the "one stack" release, this month I thought I read, would not have that bug. That could be a problem if it does this from, say 90 MPH to 70 MPH. Not that I've ever driven that fast, of course.

 

[jabloomf1230]

I can't be the only one with FSDb that thinks that the gradual slow down is of recent vintage? The city streets speed limit deceleration was quite human-like until maybe 10.6.x or 10.7.x. . Some recent change in the firmware also broke the slowdown logic.

 

[KArnold]

That's encouraging. I have a similar turn. In my case it is 2 lanes, 40 MPH limit. At an upcoming light a third, dedicated left turn lane starts a good 1/4 mile before the light. In my case, the center lane can also turn left or straight, each in their lane.

But I end up with your scenario when I want to turn left here - no joy yet with 69.2.2. Acts the same as your red line. To further complicate things, in my case they is a freeway on-ramp 1/4 mile to the right. So FSDb is essentially in the wrong lane to make that left/right combination safely due to improper lane position.

The success was on a road that has a center lane reserved for turning

 

[sleepydoc]

Agreed @archae86, the point more being awareness.

1. Both of the above need additional corrections. And

2. Currently when using NAP (highways, etc.) the car will decelerate at different rates compared to FSD. It's much more slowely in FSDB.

Also with TACC - if you use the scroll wheel to drop the speed or it detects a lower speed limit it will decelerate much more quickly than FSDb.

When one encounters a lower speed limit while driving an ICE car, you can usually just take your foot off the accelerator and the engine slows the car at a generally appropriate rate. With AP and TACC, Tesla emulates this fairly well. With FSD it's more akin to the car simply coasting (or even less deceleration, since the car will actively add power to the motors to prevent slowing.)

I may be slow to catch on here but you're saying it slows too slowly? Maybe add a little phantom braking to the mix?

I've commented before that it's ironic how the car will phantom brake and aggressively slow for no reason yet when it knows it needs to slow down it actively prevents it!

 

[PACEMD]

Cool, we found something new to complain about..........

That perceived difference between slowing with FSD-b in city driving, cruise control with or without AP/NOA/EAP is very subjective, isn't it? Not something I could personally attest to at all.

 

[powertoold]

In hypothesis is:

1) that the car is slow to adjust to speed limit sign reductions (50 -> 35mph)
2) car is fast to respond to speed limit sign increases (35 -> 50 mph)
3) car is fast is to respond to user-initiated speed changes (scroll wheel)

 

[archae86]

In hypothesis is:

1) that the car is slow to adjust to speed limit sign reductions (50 -> 35mph)
2) car is fast to respond to speed limit sign increases (35 -> 50 mph)
3) car is fast is to respond to user-initiated speed changes (scroll wheel)

Assuming we are talking about FSDb, then I'd split your case 3 into two pieces:
3a. car is reasonably fast in responding to scroll wheel increases--a bit transparently, but not crazy
3b. car is unreasonably slow in responding to scroll wheel decreases--like getting a ticket if the cop is there even if you scroll down way before the limit change.

 

[PACEMD]

Can we talk about how dangerous this speed adjustment thing is, please? It's a wonder any of us are still alive. I myself am just hanging on by a thread..........

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

In hypothesis is:


3) car is fast is to respond to user-initiated speed changes (scroll wheel)

This is incorrect I can report. In some situations it is fast, in many others it just does not respond. I guess I should review my video to make sure the difference was not TACC vs. FSD as suggested. It’s fine though, you just turn off FSD, NBD.

I can also report FSD was useless for my 1200-mile long road trip. AP was just fine though, a few little issues but overall fairly smooth and tolerable. Of course I still disengage when I think it is going to blow it, who wants to deal with that nonsense after all?

Bizarre how on non-limited access highways it’ll vacillate between AP function and FSD, no particular pattern I could determine. UT-59/AZ-389/US-89A/Hwy 67.

The pros use TACC, or full manual. Easy and fun, gets rid of the annoying occasional phantom braking. Such a great car to drive. So easy, so stable. Leaves everyone in the dust (makes phantom braking a non-issue for safety).

 

[Jeff N]

There’s a section or road that’s been closed over the summer. It was apparently supposed to open this week (tell the city that!) because Tesla maps started routing on the closed section of the road. I decided to see what would happen - FSD came up to the stoplight with large ‘road closed’ barriers and piles of dirt readily visible on the far side of the intersection. FSD started to go straight through the intersection. I took over because there were other cars around and I didn’t want to confuse or cause issues for them But I wonder what it would have done had I not taken over.

I recently was using 10.69.2 on residential streets with navigation that set a path straight through an intersection although the street on the far side of the intersection was closed off with “road closed” signs and barriers due to repaving work.

FSD initially drove toward it, slowed and hesitated, stopped momentarily, and then turned left and continued on which caused the navigation to reroute successfully. I thought it handled it well.

 

[ironwill96]

One thing I hadn’t seen mentioned before I got into fsd beta, when on fsd it ignores maximum offsets that autopilot enforces (max 5mph over speed limit on city streets). I can now it tell it to go 50 in 25 and FSD is like sure thing boss!

I did finally fix my speed limit based autopilot to use percentages instead of fixed offset and that helps a lot to not go crazy fast automatically when in slower speed limit areas since fsd will adjust speed every time it sees a sign.

 

[ironwill96]

Can we talk about how dangerous this speed adjustment thing is, please? It's a wonder any of us are still alive. I myself am just hanging on by a thread..........

The reason everyone is talking about this is that the law in every state I’m aware of is that the speed limit is in effect at the exact spot the sign is at.

Every speed trap by a cop will utilize this exact thing when a speed limit drops from 50 to 35 etc.

The point everyone is concerned about is that letting FSDb drive this way puts you at much greater risk for the very common tickets cops trying to meet a quota in a smaller town will be writing.

 

[sleepydoc]

Cool, we found something new to complain about..........

That perceived difference between slowing with FSD-b in city driving, cruise control with or without AP/NOA/EAP is very subjective, isn't it? Not something I could personally attest to at all.

Actually, no it's not subjective. I've objectively/quantitatively measured it several times so there's no denying that it's real.

The reason everyone is talking about this is that the law in every state I’m aware of is that the speed limit is in effect at the exact spot the sign is at.

Every speed trap by a cop will utilize this exact thing when a speed limit drops from 50 to 35 etc.

The point everyone is concerned about is that letting FSDb drive this way puts you at much greater risk for the very common tickets cops trying to meet a quota in a smaller town will be writing.

exactly. They made a big deal over making sure FSD comes to a complete stop before the stop sign (arguably something you're much less likely to get a ticket for) yet this doesn't seem to matter. The really baffling part is that the rate of deceleration is different for AP and TACC than it is with FSD.

 

[Knightshade]

The really baffling part is that the rate of deceleration is different for AP and TACC than it is with FSD.

If they're still running legacy code for AP/TACC and the "new" code for FSD, then that's not baffling at all.

And single stack should "fix" it, at least in the sense of it'll behave comparably everywhere....though not in the sense we'll still have folks who don't like whatever decel rate it uses.