FSD Beta 10.69

[PACEMD]

I passed this today and that stupid Tesla thought it was a three-wheeled frankfurter, duh, hello!

 

[Tronguy]

mo·tor·cy·cle ˈmō-tər-ˌsī-kəl

: an automotive vehicle with two in-line wheels

Definition of MOTORCYCLE

an automotive vehicle with two in-line wheels… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

No arguments with Miriam-Webster. That's the English definition.

So, let's talk about Tomatoes. Those nifty, red-to-orange-to-yellow-and-occasionally-green things that one can buy in a food store.

Ask a biologist: It's a fruit, just like an apple, which it vaguely resembles and, for the plant, performs the same purpose.
'
US Government and the Supreme Court: It's a vegetable, like celery, and taxed that way. That's the Legal definition.

So, Miriam-Webster and dictionaries everywhere got it right. But there's a Supreme Court precedent that, if some agency-or-other defines a motorcycle as "anything that's not a car", then the legal definition rules. Whee.

Weirdly enough, from time to time I've read some court decision that goes into the weeds on word definitions. The idea seems to be that if the word being used isn't defined up front by lawyers that it means this-and-that, then various justices go, literally, to dictionaries and use the definitions in there.

And now you know why Big Legal Documents (insurance, mortgages, cell phone contracts, etc.) tend to have a Definitions section up in front.

Ha. Speaking as a EE who's designed systems and invented jargon to go with. "If you're not making up an acronym a day, you're not working."

 

[PACEMD]

You may call a rose whatever you want

So is it cool if I call a rose satan's thorny disciple? My wife questions the objectivity of that description........

 

[PACEMD]

No arguments with Miriam-Webster. That's the English definition.

So, let's talk about Tomatoes. Those nifty, red-to-orange-to-yellow-and-occasionally-green things that one can buy in a food store.

Ask a biologist: It's a fruit, just like an apple, which it vaguely resembles and, for the plant, performs the same purpose.
'
US Government and the Supreme Court: It's a vegetable, like celery, and taxed that way. That's the Legal definition.

So, Miriam-Webster and dictionaries everywhere got it right. But there's a Supreme Court precedent that, if some agency-or-other defines a motorcycle as "anything that's not a car", then the legal definition rules. Whee.

Weirdly enough, from time to time I've read some court decision that goes into the weeds on word definitions. The idea seems to be that if the word being used isn't defined up front by lawyers that it means this-and-that, then various justices go, literally, to dictionaries and use the definitions in there.

And now you know why Big Legal Documents (insurance, mortgages, cell phone contracts, etc.) tend to have a Definitions section up in front.

Ha. Speaking as a EE who's designed systems and invented jargon to go with. "If you're not making up an acronym a day, you're not working."

Yeah, but what kind of fruit would drive a tomato...........

 

[sleepydoc]

You may call a rose whatever you want but what a car is doesn't depend on a subjective definition. Cars also have to meet certain Safety Standards like having Seatbelts, Air Bags and must be Crash Tested and fuel Economy Tested. Autocycles don't.



View attachment 864215

And that’s a perfectly fine definition. It’s just not the only definition, or even the most common one. (See @Tronguy ’s post)

Also note that the legal ‘less than 4 wheels is a motorcycle’ definition doesn’t apply in most of the world.

 

[Knightshade]

mo·tor·cy·cle ˈmō-tər-ˌsī-kəl

: an automotive vehicle with two in-line wheels

Definition of MOTORCYCLE

an automotive vehicle with two in-line wheels… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Except that's a dictionary, not the motor vehicle code in the US.

Where, as JulienW pointed out- if it has less than 4 wheels it is...a motorcycle.


It's bizarre the hills you pick to die on man.

 

[EVNow]

I've been having a good time with FSD lately. Lots of zero disengagement trips. Infact in the last 17 trips - 13 are zero disengagement.

 

[JulienW]

Except that's a dictionary, not the motor vehicle code in the US.

Where, as JulienW pointed out- if it has less than 4 wheels it is...a motorcycle.


It's bizarre the hills you pick to die on man.

....and THE ENTIRE point is Tesla doesn't render autocycles properly. I'm just trying to explain why that is likely and get dragged down this rabbit hole. seeepydoc why don't you contact Tesla and TELL them what you think a car is so they can render it since you know what it should be.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I've been having a good time with FSD lately. Lots of zero disengagement trips. Infact in the last 17 trips - 13 are zero disengagement.

View attachment 864258

Need videos.

It’s possible you have been lulled into mediocrity!

I’m surprised you have so many fewer interventions than disengagements actually. I am still happily hammering that go pedal all the time, and I am not an aggressive driver.

 

[Silicon Desert]

....and THE ENTIRE point is Tesla doesn't render autocycles properly. I'm just trying to explain why that is likely and get dragged down this rabbit hole. seeepydoc why don't you contact Tesla and TELL them what you think a car is so they can render it since you know what it should be.

yup, and that is the reason why I have ignored a couple people. They just want to argue and drag things down a hole. It's always about them being right. I'm not referring to doc. Hopefully back on topic.

 

[JulienW]

I've been having a good time with FSD lately. Lots of zero disengagement trips. Infact in the last 17 trips - 13 are zero disengagement.

Are you going Whole Mars Catalog Jr on us now? Strange while I have insisted (mostly by Elon'sTweet's) that 2.3 was minor my drive's have been worse. I was having some zero disengagement drives on 2.2 and 2.3 seems to have regressed. Odd how it seems some move forward a step or 2 for some and others seems to move back a step or 2. Just makes me wonder if we don't get different versions of the same version (that sounds strange) to test. Or maybe different switches are enabled for different people to test different situations.

 

[PACEMD]

Are you going Whole Mars Catalog Jr on us now? Strange while I have insisted (mostly by Elon'sTweet's) that 2.3 was minor my drive's have been worse. I was having some zero disengagement drives on 2.2 and 2.3 seems to have regressed. Odd how it seems some move forward a step or 2 for some and others seems to move back a step or 2. Just makes me wonder if we don't get different versions of the same version (that sounds strange) to test. Or maybe different switches are enabled for different people to test different situations.

Or it simply mirrors the subjectivity of observation, use, and response, amplified by the myriad variations of input.........

 

[Tronguy]

Or it simply mirrors the subjectivity of observation, use, and response, amplified by the myriad variations of input.........

Personally, I’m holding out for chaos theory, where there’s a zillion state variables and tiny changes in an input 15 miles before cause huge changes in FSD responses right now .

 

[JHCCAZ]

Personally, I’m holding out for chaos theory, where there’s a zillion state variables and tiny changes in an input 15 miles before cause huge changes in FSD responses right now .

I've been around development projects, and around traffic, for a long time.
Long enough to know that chaos is not a theory.

 

[EVNow]

Need videos.

It’s possible you have been lulled into mediocrity!

I’m surprised you have so many fewer interventions than disengagements actually. I am still happily hammering that go pedal all the time, and I am not an aggressive driver.

I've videos - will need to remove PII before posting. Would be difficult.

Mediocrity is absolutely the name of the game ... a.k.a. "normal" and "average"

I think we have discussed this before, I rarely use the accelerator. Where I drive, people aren't as aggressive as in your place - besides I'm not "embarrassed" to let FSD be slow at times. I don't get honked at or "inconvenience" people. Besides, I've a "Robot Student Driver" magnet at the back for a reason !

Are you going Whole Mars Catalog Jr on us now?

Or it simply mirrors the subjectivity of observation, use, and response, amplified by the myriad variations of input.........

Here is my take on why I've more zero DE trips now compared to earlier. I said the same thing earlier - but will expand on that a bit.

1. How far do you "push" before disengaging. Or IOW, how much do you trust the system. I think this is the main factor. This is how Omar gets so many zero DE drives. He simply trusts the system more than us and is willing to let FSD handle the situation - however jittery it is.

I've learned to trust the system a bit more than earlier - aided by Chuck's ULT videos. Now that I know how much FSD can be jittery before actually making the turn correctly, I'm not disengaging early like I used to. I let it be a little jittery. I don't disengage or push the accelerator when FSD comes to a stop somewhat awkwardly. I don't disengage when it makes a little right push before turning left etc. Also, the creeping boundary helps to determine whether the car is creeping too much or not.

2. One of the roundabouts near my house is now mapped ! That means, 50% of the time, FSD can handle it. In fact there are two small roundabouts near me that FSD can handle all the time - but is very hesitant. I disengage if there is a car behind me. Otherwise I let it take its sweet time but report it. So, getting a zero disengagement trip is a matter of how many roundabouts do I have in my route and how many of those do I disengage in.

3. 69.x is actually better ! It can actually handle turns that earlier FSD would just give up on or get stuck in the middle of the intersection. FSD used to have a hard time turning into small roads where a car was waiting (traveling in the opposite direction) esp. if the car had come out into the intersection like most cars seem to.

 

[willow_hiller]

Where I drive, people aren't as aggressive as in your place - besides I'm not "embarrassed" to let FSD be slow at times.

That sounds so nice. I usually only get to let FSD Beta make slow cautious turns when there's nobody behind me. Otherwise a fraction of a second of hesitation has them laying on the horn.

Road rage is no joke!

 

[PACEMD]

I've videos - will need to remove PII before posting. Would be difficult.

Mediocrity is absolutely the name of the game ... a.k.a. "normal" and "average"

I think we have discussed this before, I rarely use the accelerator. Where I drive, people aren't as aggressive as in your place - besides I'm not "embarrassed" to let FSD be slow at times. I don't get honked at or "inconvenience" people. Besides, I've a "Robot Student Driver" magnet at the back for a reason !




Here is my take on why I've more zero DE trips now compared to earlier. I said the same thing earlier - but will expand on that a bit.

1. How far do you "push" before disengaging. Or IOW, how much do you trust the system. I think this is the main factor. This is how Omar gets so many zero DE drives. He simply trusts the system more than us and is willing to let FSD handle the situation - however jittery it is.

I've learned to trust the system a bit more than earlier - aided by Chuck's ULT videos. Now that I know how much FSD can be jittery before actually making the turn correctly, I'm not disengaging early like I used to. I let it be a little jittery. I don't disengage or push the accelerator when FSD comes to a stop somewhat awkwardly. I don't disengage when it makes a little right push before turning left etc. Also, the creeping boundary helps to determine whether the car is creeping too much or not.

2. One of the roundabouts near my house is now mapped ! That means, 50% of the time, FSD can handle it. In fact there are two small roundabouts near me that FSD can handle all the time - but is very hesitant. I disengage if there is a car behind me. Otherwise I let it take its sweet time but report it. So, getting a zero disengagement trip is a matter of how many roundabouts do I have in my route and how many of those do I disengage in.

3. 69.x is actually better ! It can actually handle turns that earlier FSD would just give up on or get stuck in the middle of the intersection. FSD used to have a hard time turning into small roads where a car was waiting (traveling in the opposite direction) esp. if the car had come out into the intersection like most cars seem to.

Well said. Part of the learning curve is knowing when to trust FSD and not to always disengage when you think it just might do the wrong thing. That involves knowing when you can safely let it do, or at least try, its thing versus oh si*t, no way that's gonna work. Early on it's scary, with supervisory experience, less so. Knowing when you can safely let the experiment run and when not is the game. Make no assumptions.

 

[ironwill96]

My wife also was annoyed at four way stop behavior. I told her yeah the government made them actually follow the laws and won’t allow rolling stops even though every human being does it, especially when there are clear sight lines and you know nobody is coming.

Boy I should have read this as prophesy - got pulled over today for doing a California roll at a stop sign (in Georgia) with clear sight lines (not on fsd). Cop was in a super well hidden spot and was nice enough to just give me a warning. Saw her pull over more people on my way back past - she probably got someone every single time she got parked.

Fsd would not have gotten pulled over lol, wish I had been using it!

 

[Bladerskb]

I've videos - will need to remove PII before posting. Would be difficult.

Mediocrity is absolutely the name of the game ... a.k.a. "normal" and "average"

I think we have discussed this before, I rarely use the accelerator. Where I drive, people aren't as aggressive as in your place - besides I'm not "embarrassed" to let FSD be slow at times. I don't get honked at or "inconvenience" people. Besides, I've a "Robot Student Driver" magnet at the back for a reason !




Here is my take on why I've more zero DE trips now compared to earlier. I said the same thing earlier - but will expand on that a bit.

1. How far do you "push" before disengaging. Or IOW, how much do you trust the system. I think this is the main factor. This is how Omar gets so many zero DE drives. He simply trusts the system more than us and is willing to let FSD handle the situation - however jittery it is.

I've learned to trust the system a bit more than earlier - aided by Chuck's ULT videos. Now that I know how much FSD can be jittery before actually making the turn correctly, I'm not disengaging early like I used to. I let it be a little jittery. I don't disengage or push the accelerator when FSD comes to a stop somewhat awkwardly. I don't disengage when it makes a little right push before turning left etc. Also, the creeping boundary helps to determine whether the car is creeping too much or not.

2. One of the roundabouts near my house is now mapped ! That means, 50% of the time, FSD can handle it. In fact there are two small roundabouts near me that FSD can handle all the time - but is very hesitant. I disengage if there is a car behind me. Otherwise I let it take its sweet time but report it. So, getting a zero disengagement trip is a matter of how many roundabouts do I have in my route and how many of those do I disengage in.

3. 69.x is actually better ! It can actually handle turns that earlier FSD would just give up on or get stuck in the middle of the intersection. FSD used to have a hard time turning into small roads where a car was waiting (traveling in the opposite direction) esp. if the car had come out into the intersection like most cars seem to.

There are two issues with Omar videos even when you take into account that he tries to let the system do it alot more.

1) He increases/decreases the speed (do you?). Which is crucial to avoid a future disengagement especially for location you know the system struggles with. An example is his port video where the system tries to go 25 MPH in the park with a bunch of peds around and he reduces the speed.

2) He uses the accelerator, as we know.

3) The most important is that he doesn't post the obvious mistakes. If you follow his twitter, you will see times where he complains about drives that are horrible but NEVER posts video of them.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I've learned to trust the system a bit more than earlier - aided by Chuck's ULT videos. Now that I know how much FSD can be jittery before actually making the turn correctly, I'm not disengaging early like I used to. I let it be a little jittery

This is what I meant by mediocrity. Obviously we cannot judge the level of improvement (I am not saying you were making such claims, but a casual reader of the table might think that there was a huge improvement!) if you have changed your standards. You have lowered the standards with your driving style modifications. (Which you are welcome to do but this means an asterisk on your data!)

To be clear, I think 10.69.2 would show some improvement on these metrics, all else being equal.

Mediocrity is absolutely the name of the game ... a.k.a. "normal" and "average"

Explained above. What I meant was raising your threshold for intervention which will result in a drive that deviates more from how you would normally drive.

I think it is best to intervene as soon as FSD Beta does anything wrong, and measure based on those standards. Which would still not be scientific of course (what counts as wrong?).

I've videos - will need to remove PII before posting. Would be difficult.

Blur feature in YouTube works and is easy to use, though somehow it seemed to limit resultant image quality to 1080p, though that could have been a one-off issue or user error.