FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[JHCCAZ]

I was taught that as a teenager because it works just fine as a rule of thumb up to 60 mph. The federal government didn't repeal the 55 law until 1995, allowing states to really cut loose on speed limits. And now here we are with western states commonly posting 80 mph on rural interstates.

The other rule of thumb was 2 second spacing.

I was taught these rules also, and despite the fact that very few drivers obey the 2-second rule, people are now being taught a 3-second rule or more. In one way I don't mind, but in another way I think it encourages disrespect for traffic and driving advice, when the advice would put you in a far-outlying portion of road users.

It's an interesting discussion as to whether "extra safe" but unusually long following distance actually encourages unsafe maneuvers by annoyed drivers, or simply creates a bit of confusion and may distract others from their normal driving attention because they're watching you.

Something similar could be said about the dawdling at stop signs. It may seem safe but confuses the right-of-way assumptions at four-way stops, and may cause unsafe hurrying or scoot-arounds (even if not "road rage") by drivers behind you at any stop sign.

And it's not only a concern of other drivers - we L2 ego-car (FSDb) operators shouldn't have our attention taken up by worrying about the car's lack of etiquette in traffic. Let us worry about actual threats or necessary interventions, and not FSD-created ones.

To me, there's absolutely no question that forcing (semi-)autonomous vehicles to behave like super-cautious humans is not always the safest design choice.

 

[swedge]

In any case 1000 is a huge number and that is not all non-USS vehicles.

Yeah, so lack of USS is not the explanation.

The risks are probably fairly low.

Agreed. But if the risk is so low, why withhold from the 20%?

I guess it is just Tesal being Tesla. Like Joni Mitchell said, so bitter and so sweet. I just feel bad for the 10.69ers.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

But if the risk is so low, why withhold from the 20%?

Knowingly releasing software with safety defects is different than accidentally releasing it. Plus rolling all users back to something else backs out some of the voluntary recall changes which is another problem and may not be advisable.

They each have different issues.

So they are stuck. On balance it is probably better to not have the behavior of the cars changing unless it is clearly for safety improvement, so reverting (or advancing) is also risky from that perspective.

This also allows them to continue to make 10.69 comparisons I guess.

Or it could have nothing to do with safety. No idea.

 

[EVNow]

Agreed. But if the risk is so low, why withhold from the 20%?

A/B testing.

 

[Supcom]

Yeah, so lack of USS is not the explanation.


Agreed. But if the risk is so low, why withhold from the 20%?

I guess it is just Tesal being Tesla. Like Joni Mitchell said, so bitter and so sweet. I just feel bad for the 10.69ers.

When Tesla releases 11.3.6 and 11.3.7 this weekend and the 20% get it, the 80% will be the ones complaining.

 

[Twiglett]

Yeah, so lack of USS is not the explanation.


Agreed. But if the risk is so low, why withhold from the 20%?

I guess it is just Tesal being Tesla. Like Joni Mitchell said, so bitter and so sweet. I just feel bad for the 10.69ers.

you're making the assumption that it is being withheld, when it could be something entirely different.
Its entirely possible that 20% of owners have the download set to "Standard" instead of "Advanced"
Could also be the percentage of cars that aren't on wifi very often, or some other reason etc etc.

 

[Supcom]

you're making the assumption that it is being withheld, when it could be something entirely different.
Its entirely possible that 20% of owners have the download set to "Standard" instead of "Advanced"
Could also be the percentage of cars that aren't on wifi very often, or some other reason etc etc.

I've never noticed any correlation between the Standard/Advanced setting and arrival of FSD upgrades.

 

[Twiglett]

I've never noticed any correlation between the Standard/Advanced setting and arrival of FSD upgrades.

and yet the setting is still there, now with updated descriptions. Seems odd to leave it there if it really has no function.
But that's not the point. The point is that assuming an update is being "withheld" makes the assumption that it is being forced on someone, when its just as likely to something different.
Given the differences of opinions here, there probably is 20% of folks who are clinging to old versions or never connect to wifi.
The other thing is that nobody has any clue how updates happen and can't prove that the selection has no effect - it's all guesswork.

 

[thewishmaster]

Someone mentioned that canceling lane changes by canceling the blinker doesn’t appear to work - I experienced this firsthand today. The car attempted to merge right which wasn’t the lane I needed at the time. I caught it after a couple blinks and the blinker turned off, however the car proceeded with the lane change without the blinker so I took over.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Someone mentioned that canceling lane changes by canceling the blinker doesn’t appear to work - I experienced this firsthand today.

Specifically on the freeway? Works fine on surface streets 11.3.4.

 

[SSDTester#1]

you're making the assumption that it is being withheld, when it could be something entirely different.
Its entirely possible that 20% of owners have the download set to "Standard" instead of "Advanced"
Could also be the percentage of cars that aren't on wifi very often, or some other reason etc etc.

The car receives and checks for updates over cell, no need for WiFi. Now you do need WiFi to download, but then if you’re unable, it’s not being withheld.

 

[swedge]

you're making the assumption that it is being withheld, when it could be something entirely different.
Its entirely possible that 20% of owners have the download set to "Standard" instead of "Advanced"
Could also be the percentage of cars that aren't on wifi very often, or some other reason etc etc.

Twigster,

Thanks for the input, but...

As I mentioned earlier, TeslaFi has no access or insight into Tesla's servers beyond what those servers set into the individual cars' accounts, which TeslaFi does monitor. So, in counting "Pending", TeslFi is counting flags which have been set in individual car accounts. The total number of Pending plus Installed has been constant for days on end.

To your conjecture, TeslaFi's "Pending" count includes cars which have have not been connected to WiFi, so cars not on WiFi is not why the Pending number is so low and has not increased. And since the total has not changed, changes in standard/advanced are probably not effective, at least after the available flag for each VIN has been set.

It appears that several days ago Tesla set the number of cars to be updated to 11.3.x at around 80% of the cars apparently able to be updated. Safety problems, user settings, concerns about suspicions, USS, and Safety Scores all appear not to explain Tesla's decision to withhold 11.3.x updates for months from around 1,000 purchasers of FSD while non-FSD customers are receiving regular updates.

I remain unclear on the reason, rather than, well, "Tesla". Next time I have My Dinner with Elon, I'll ask him. ;-)

 

[swedge]

When Tesla releases 11.3.6 and 11.3.7 this weekend and the 20% get it, the 80% will be the ones complaining.

That'd be OK by me! At least all of us FSD buyers would be updatable to V11.

Then we can start waiting for the next advance, perhaps at 2023 based FSDβ update...

My wife has not yet tried FSDβ, and barely tolerates my using it when she is riding shotgun. But I'm thinking that FSD now handles highways well enough for her to maybe prefer it over the production EAP version. Smother lane changes and better speed control on exists and interchanges on NoA seem like huge improvements to me. She would need to manually disengage when leaving the freeway to avoid it's in-city issues, while the old AP did that automatically, if memory serves. I would also need to show her the annoyingly non-default "minimize lane changes" setting for sure - we are both pretty comfortable with the old manually requested, semi-automatic lane changes under EAP, which is close to what minimize does.

Has anyone tried this spousal test yet?

 

[thewishmaster]

Specifically on the freeway? Works fine on surface streets 11.3.4.

Surface street. Haven’t tried canceling lane changes on the freeway yet

 

[Matias]

I like reporting serious problems with the disengagement what-went-wrong speech option and have done so about ten times in the last week. But how can engineers handle the many reports they must be getting?

They must have automatic speech to text software and also tools to automatically search for specific problems.

 

[thedaysbetween]

That'd be OK by me! At least all of us FSD buyers would be updatable to V11.

Then we can start waiting for the next advance, perhaps at 2023 based FSDβ update...

My wife has not yet tried FSDβ, and barely tolerates my using it when she is riding shotgun. But I'm thinking that FSD now handles highways well enough for her to maybe prefer it over the production EAP version. Smother lane changes and better speed control on exists and interchanges on NoA seem like huge improvements to me. She would need to manually disengage when leaving the freeway to avoid it's in-city issues, while the old AP did that automatically, if memory serves. I would also need to show her the annoyingly non-default "minimize lane changes" setting for sure - we are both pretty comfortable with the old manually requested, semi-automatic lane changes under EAP, which is close to what minimize does.

Has anyone tried this spousal test yet?

The woman, to whom I am related by marriage, commented that the new highway FSDB performed "much better than the old one..."

 

[Twiglett]

The car receives and checks for updates over cell, no need for WiFi. Now you do need WiFi to download, but then if you’re unable, it’s not being withheld.

exactly the point.

The woman, to whom I am related by marriage, commented that the new highway FSDB performed "much better than the old one..."

Similar result here, although SWMBO's comment was "much better, it still brakes like an inattentive learner though"

 

[Porkalletta]

That'd be OK by me! At least all of us FSD buyers would be updatable to V11.

Then we can start waiting for the next advance, perhaps at 2023 based FSDβ update...

My wife has not yet tried FSDβ, and barely tolerates my using it when she is riding shotgun. But I'm thinking that FSD now handles highways well enough for her to maybe prefer it over the production EAP version. Smother lane changes and better speed control on exists and interchanges on NoA seem like huge improvements to me. She would need to manually disengage when leaving the freeway to avoid it's in-city issues, while the old AP did that automatically, if memory serves. I would also need to show her the annoyingly non-default "minimize lane changes" setting for sure - we are both pretty comfortable with the old manually requested, semi-automatic lane changes under EAP, which is close to what minimize does.

Has anyone tried this spousal test yet?

Just got and tried 11.3.4 in the L.A. area with wife as shotgun. We agreed that the update did make significant upgrades to 10.69.

In town we had the usual problems. Wrong lane for turning. There are many places where 3 lanes have cars parked in the right lane all of a sudden. If you are in the right lane, manual driving means this has to be realized way in advance or you will get stuck waiting a LONG time for an opening to move over. FSDb, of course would wait until the last minute. Scary in L.A. Did very well as long we used non-commercial residential areas.

On highway it was very impressive. On a 130 mile drive only had 1 phantom break which was soft and easily corrected. Merging worked fine.The biggest shock was when we were in the left lane, the traffic was moving about 55 mph and a lane splitting motorcyclist was on our right side passing between cars. He was swerving in and out (like they do) and my 2022 MX refresh with USS hit the brakes very hard and jerked the wheel left and right not knowing where to go. I thought the car behind me would hit me but he had kept enough distance. It is expected in SoCal to move over to allow these lane splitters room to go. Idk how Tesla can ever address this? Anyone else had this happen to them?

 

[zoomer0056]

lane splitting

Was the bike even with or behind you when the car move left?

 

[Porkalletta]

Was the bike even with or behind you when the car move left?

He passed in between me and the car an my right and my car jerked back and forth after he got to the front right bumper area. FSDb had no idea what to do with that and almost hit him.