FSD Beta v11.x

Supcom · Feb 18, 2023

willow_hiller said:
Isn't that part of this latest recall? I know some of the recall language is unclear regarding "perceived duration of the vehicle's static position," but on the front page of the recall it says "entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop."

I interpreted the "perceived duration of the vehicle's static position" as meaning that the car does stop, but does so for such a short time that a human might not see it as a "full stop."

I have noticed this in my Tesla, though the car more than makes up Waiting for Godot at empty intersections.

powertoold · Feb 18, 2023

It'll be a sad day if nhtsa forces Tesla back to 0mph.

I would stop using fsd around stop signs, like I did when it was 0mph in the past.

Knightshade · Feb 18, 2023

powertoold said:
It'll be a sad day if nhtsa forces Tesla back to 0mph.

Why does every instance of enforcing the law seem to upset you?

This is how self driving cars will work- required to obey all vehicle and traffic laws. All of em.

Now, if in the future they get so much safer that it makes sense to CHANGE the traffic laws, that could happen. But that's way in the future.

PVia · Feb 18, 2023

swedge said:
In certain rare circumstances and within the operating limitations of FSD Beta

And the headlines are all about Teslas causing crashes...
The company is upending the entire established auto industry and the "competitors" are afraid of what they're seeing.
Forget FSD, forget EVs, forget the massive Supercharger network, forget the basic software (even without any autopilot at all)...just the fact that Tesla has done this all through their own stores with no dealers, has them terrified. Just this one fact...

Now add all the rest back in...even without any promise of self-driving, the car is head and shoulders above any other driving experience available. today.

tivoboy · Feb 18, 2023

It’s odd, I‘m just now today getting 44.30.10

powertoold · Feb 18, 2023

Knightshade said:
Why does every instance of enforcing the law seem to upset you?

This is how self driving cars will work- required to obey all vehicle and traffic laws. All of em.

Because humans don't drive by strictly following the laws. And nhtsa has no evidence that these changes have any relevance for safety.

willow_hiller · Feb 18, 2023

powertoold said:
Because humans don't drive by strictly following the laws. And nhtsa has no evidence that these changes have any relevance for safety.

It's interesting to think that NHTSA doesn't have any large-scale data on whether following traffic laws leads to safer outcomes. All data they could collect until now would have been filtered through human-drivers partially following the laws in place in any given location.

Tesla might actually have the largest driver telemetry dataset in the world, and they can determine which exact maneuvers lead to collisions. I would hope that Tesla would be able to use that data to prevent NHTSA from enforcing rules that would actually injure people.

Knightshade · Feb 18, 2023

powertoold said:
Because humans don't drive by strictly following the laws

Ok.

But cars aren't humans. The entire point of self driving is to do a better, more reliable, job.

powertoold said:
. And nhtsa has no evidence that these changes have any relevance for safety.

Except, of course, they have TONS of evidence driving faster increases accidents and deaths.

Speed Kills | National Association of City Transportation Officials

nacto.org

As speed limits and speeds increase, so do fatalities. Researchers from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) found that a 5 mph increase in the maximum speed limit was associated with an 8% increase in the fatality rate on interstates and freeways, and a 3% increase in fatalities on other roads

and

The Highway Safety Manual reports that a 1 mph reduction in operating speeds can result in a 17% decrease in fatal crashes. A separate study found that a 10% reduction in the average speed resulted in 19% fewer injury crashes, 27% fewer severe crashes, and 34% fewer fatal crashes.

Or here's DOT themselves telling you this. Presumably the NHTSA has access to this website.

Index - Synthesis of Safety Research Related to Speed and Speed Management, July 1998 - FHWA-RD-98-154

This is the Turner-Fairbank Highway Research Center.

www.fhwa.dot.gov

The table shows that crash–incidence or crash severity, or both measures, generally decline whenever speed limits have been reduced. Conversely, the number of crashes or crash severity generally increased when speed limits were raised, especially on freeways

That doesn't mean the evidence is 1000% perfect and conclusive- but it certainly exists and pretty heavily supports the idea speed kills- so simply asking car companies to have their self driving systems obey the speed limit has a very rational basis.

And sure enough- every regulator who has allowed self-driving vehicles has done exactly that.

sleepydoc · Feb 18, 2023

powertoold said:
Because humans don't drive by strictly following the laws. And nhtsa has no evidence that these changes have any relevance for safety.

How humans drive is irrelevant here. The law is the law and the NHTSA is saying Tesla can’t program their cars to break the law. Pretty simple concept, really.

JulienW · Feb 19, 2023

sleepydoc said:
How humans drive is irrelevant here. The law is the law and the NHTSA is saying Tesla can’t program their cars to break the law. Pretty simple concept, really.

...but there are L2 systems on a large percentage of all new cars sold an they can be programed to break the law. Name 1 adaptive cruise control system that NHTSA regulates to not exceed the speed limit? I believe the NHTSA regulations are more about potential safety issues which may or may not correlate with a traffic law.

So I don't think the speed of FSD Beta will be strictly limited to the speed limit since in fairness NHTSA would need to limit all L2 systems.

Gbills · Feb 19, 2023

JulienW said:
...but there are L2 systems on a large percentage of all new cars sold an they can be programed to break the law. Name 1 adaptive cruise control system that NHTSA regulates to not exceed the speed limit? I believe the NHTSA regulations are more about potential safety issues which may or may not correlate with a traffic law.

So I don't think the speed of FSD Beta will be strictly limited to the speed limit since in fairness NHTSA would need to limit all L2 systems.

I believe it’s more about the reduction of speed from say 55 to a 45 which takes way to long. Cruise control only sets upper limits.

sleepydoc · Feb 19, 2023

JulienW said:
...but there are L2 systems on a large percentage of all new cars sold an they can be programed to break the law. Name 1 adaptive cruise control system that NHTSA regulates to not exceed the speed limit? I believe the NHTSA regulations are more about potential safety issues which may or may not correlate with a traffic law.

So I don't think the speed of FSD Beta will be strictly limited to the speed limit since in fairness NHTSA would need to limit all L2 systems.

you're conflating several things here.

@powertoold was arguing that NHTSA shouldn't say anything about FSD breaking the law because 'that's how humans drive.' That is what I was responding to.

Your point seems to be that other systems (i.e. cruise control) allow drivers to speed so FSD should, too. A fundamental difference here is that in the former, the human is actively setting the speed whereas FSD is programmed to do so. In one case the system allows the driver to break the law, in the other it's designed to break the law. A further differentiation is that cruise control systems in general have no means of knowing the speed limit and thus need the driver to set it at the appropriate limit. As a 'smart' system with both GPS integration and optical sign recognition, FSD has far more capacity in this regard.

The final point is what @Gbills posted above - the issue the NHTSA seems to be concerned with is the fact that FSD seems to take an inordinately long time to drop its speed. Many others have posted and complained about that in the past, including myself. In one area I drive it takes significantly over ¼ mile to slow from 50 down to 35. Far longer than TACC does and far longer than a 'normal' driver would. This is also illegal and is a favorite site for cops in smaller towns to set speed traps. The fact that there are often signs warning of the speed limit drop makes it even more inexcusable.

JulienW · Feb 19, 2023

sleepydoc said:
you're conflating several things here.

@powertoold was arguing that NHTSA shouldn't say anything about FSD breaking the law because 'that's how humans drive.' That is what I was responding to.

Your point seems to be that other systems (i.e. cruise control) allow drivers to speed so FSD should, too. A fundamental difference here is that in the former, the human is actively setting the speed whereas FSD is programmed to do so. In one case the system allows the driver to break the law, in the other it's designed to break the law. A further differentiation is that cruise control systems in general have no means of knowing the speed limit and thus need the driver to set it at the appropriate limit. As a 'smart' system with both GPS integration and optical sign recognition, FSD has far more capacity in this regard.....

Actually the main point was only that NHTSA doesn't enforce traffic laws. The mandate of NHTSA is all about safety (and perceived safety) and regulations. So in effect NHTSA is not looking at FSD Beta breaking the law BUT is it a safety risk. So doesn't have anything to do with the way humans drive but what falls in under NHTSA safety regulations jurisdiction.

Statutory Authorities | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

JulienW · Feb 19, 2023

Gbills said:
I believe it’s more about the reduction of speed from say 55 to a 45 which takes way to long. Cruise control only sets upper limits.

Yes, this can be a safety issue and/or a perceived safety issue. So it is not about the legal speed limit but more about what human nature expects. That the car should mimic our driving and slow accordingly in a reasonable time instead of "taking forever" to slow down.

sleepydoc · Feb 19, 2023

JulienW said:
Actually the main point was only that NHTSA doesn't enforce traffic laws. The mandate of NHTSA is all about safety (and perceived safety) and regulations. So in effect NHTSA is not looking at FSD Beta breaking the law BUT is it a safety risk. So doesn't have anything to do with the way humans drive but what falls in under NHTSA safety regulations jurisdiction.

Statutory Authorities | NHTSA

www.nhtsa.gov

Ask any patrol officer about speeding and safety. Then ask them if they think rolling stops are safe.

powertoold · Feb 19, 2023

sleepydoc said:
Ask any patrol officer about speeding and safety. Then ask them if they think rolling stops are safe.

The better question to ask is, how many rolling stops has fsdb done in its 90+ million miles of driving, and how many of those rolling stops led to an accident. The recall release doesn't mention any accidents related to rolling stops, only a "risk."

n.one.one · Feb 19, 2023

On the move...

n.one.one · Feb 19, 2023

More info.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1627487752777351174

powertoold · Feb 19, 2023

Interesting, I wonder if the original v11 release notes still apply or these new 11.3 notes overwrite the prior notes.

For example, there's no more mention of the 4x resolution occupancy network.

EVNow · Feb 19, 2023

n.one.one said:
More info.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1627487752777351174

For anyone wondering ... like I was ...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1627489311871336448

FSD Beta v11.x

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