FSD Beta v11.x

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

Enright said:
I like how this thread has devolved (evolved?) into an existential debate over whether or not traffic laws are even necessary.

I think it stems from people complaining that Beta drives conservatively and can cause dangerous situations when, for example, it comes to a complete stop at a stop sign, or doesn't run a stale yellow light. It becomes.a debate on traffic laws and whether ADAS and AVs should be required to follow them.

aronth5 · Mar 29, 2023

People often complain that Boston and area roads were designed for horses and cows. True for many. Well at least for cows based on this circa 1920 picture of Boston's Children's Hospital and some fine looking cows. Look closely and you'll see several Model T's in the background.
Boston is just one of many very old northeast cities/towns whose roads screw up FSD bigtime. I see it everyday.

And while people complain about Boston drivers every day I get waved or headlights flashed by a motorist whose being nice. FSD of course justs sits until I push it thru. I'd love to know how this is resolved?

drtimhill · Mar 29, 2023

DBV1 said:
The warnings to pay attention are way too often now. I can pickup my phone and quickly try to change a setting to Bluetooth and I get a warning now. That never happened before. Very annoying. If that keeps happening will just dump the beta. What is the point of FSD if you can’t even do that?

I think so that you dont take your eyes off the road and cause a crash when looking at your phone???

Ramphex · Mar 29, 2023

DBV1 said:
So, far with limited freeway testing, I don’t think the new beta update is a step forward and may possibly be a step backward. Especially if my first point below keeps happening.

The warnings to pay attention are way too often now. I can pickup my phone and quickly try to change a setting to Bluetooth and I get a warning now. That never happened before. Very annoying. If that keeps happening will just dump the beta. What is the point of FSD if you can’t even do that?

The new speed limit feature, that I think is linked to the recall is very annoying too. Suddenly the car just slows down, when that is not even needed? Seems more dangerous.

Both days I have tested freeway driving have been very windy, so not sure if this legitimate yet, but I don’t think it drives any smoother on the freeway and could even be worse. Before this update, my car was always kept center of the lane and now it seems to go back and forth more. But again, these are on windy days, so more testing needs to be done.

It watches you, watching it drive, while you’re jerking off your steering wheel to satisfy the nag

Enright · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
I think it stems from people complaining that Beta drives conservatively and can cause dangerous situations when, for example, it comes to a complete stop at a stop sign, or doesn't run a stale yellow light. It becomes.a debate on traffic laws and whether ADAS and AVs should be required to follow them.

Agreed - and I do like the discussion - but it really is an existential conversation. I saw quite a few “zipper merges” on my way to JFK that involved drivers practically unzipping their pants and displaying their testosterone - you know - those “I am going to ram into your car and kill you if you don’t let me in, even though I am in a third lane that doesn’t exist” merges where everyone is honking and threatening each other though a half open window in at least four different languages.

In these situations - you will die of starvation in the merge lane unless you channel your inner a-hole - it’s an FSD intervention 100% of the time. FSD will literally need an inner a-hole to effectively drive here. Without it - everyone will see a robotaxi and realize it will always yield in the game of chicken.

It’s an amazing problem - how do tragically flawed humans and AI that can do the job 10,000 times more efficiently coexist. I hope this thread finds the solution quickly, for sake of everyone on the BQE and west side highway.

jabloomf1230 · Mar 29, 2023

Rather than automating vehicles, it makes more sense to automate the enforcement of traffic laws. Unfortunately, there isn't the political will to do so.

That's also why manual enforcement of traffic laws is almost a complete failure. No governor or mayor wants an outraged populace. So the alternative is minimal enforcement and high accident rates.

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

jabloomf1230 said:
Rather than automating vehicles, it makes more sense to automate the enforcement of traffic laws. Unfortunately, there isn't the political will to do so.

That's also why manual enforcement of traffic laws is almost a complete failure. No governor or mayor wants an outraged populace. So the alternative is minimal enforcement and high accident rates.

L.A. will reduce speed limit by 5 mph on 177 miles of streets

A change in the state law last year gave local officials some leeway, allowing Los Angeles to lower speed limits on major corridors for the first time in decades.

www.latimes.com

swedge · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
I hear this one too, but I can't find authoritative support for the argument. I read individual opinions, and some traffic lawyer sites in favor, but no government, law enforcement, or academic studies supporting it.

To me it seems like an extension of "mob mentality", which is the psychological notion that doing something wrong is okay if others are doing it too. One guy decides to drive 65 in a 45 zone, and as long as a few others join him, it's suddenly safe to drive 65 as that's the flow of traffic at that moment. My question is: why is the speed limit on that street 45? There must be a reason, like its proximity to residential streets where pedestrian traffic is probable. Or blind intersections where slower cars might be merging onto the street. Or perhaps there is a statistical history of collisions on that street, so the limit was set to reduce injury.

Another way to ask the question: why do we know better than the officials?

In California, speed limits are set in part by measuring actual traffic speeds on each road segment. My recollection is that case law rather than the vehicle code, determined that in the absence of a history of accidents or other factors, the 85th percentile speed is reasonable and prudent, and speed limits are set accordingly.

The 85th percentile is the speed below which 85% go slower, while 15% go faster on a particular road segment. So, in fact the officials who set speed limits do measure and pay attention to typical speeds. At least in some cases. Exceptions include the 65 mph and 70 mph limits, school zones, etc, etc, etc.

Setting Speed Limits | Caltrans

State of California

dot.ca.gov

Law section

CVC 22350, the Basic Speed Law" uses the term "reasonable and prudent" in defining what is allowed. I call it "fitting and proper".

Dennisis · Mar 29, 2023

Enright said:
FSD will literally need an inner a-hole to effectively drive here.

Yep, will be the last issue to resolve for FSD. To drive in that you have to be constantly attentive and on your game, pushing the limits. An automated horn saying "MOVE YOUR A$$ ALREADY!" would save some stress too...

Dennisis · Mar 29, 2023

swedge said:
In California, speed limits are set in part by measuring actual traffic speeds on each road segment. My recollection is that case law rather than the vehicle code, determined that in the absence of a history of accidents or other factors, the 85th percentile speed is reasonable and prudent, and speed limits are set accordingly.

The 85th percentile is the speed below which 85% go slower, while 15% go faster on a particular road segment. So, in fact the officials who set speed limits do measure and pay attention to typical speeds. At least in some cases. Exceptions include the 65 mph and 70 mph limits, school zones, etc, etc, etc.

Setting Speed Limits | Caltrans

State of California

dot.ca.gov

Law section

CVC 22350, the Basic Speed Law" uses the term "reasonable and prudent" in defining what is allowed. I call it "fitting and proper".

AZ's pretty much the same:

establishing-speed-limits

Dewg · Mar 29, 2023

swedge said:
In California, speed limits are set in part by measuring actual traffic speeds on each road segment. My recollection is that case law rather than the vehicle code, determined that in the absence of a history of accidents or other factors, the 85th percentile speed is reasonable and prudent, and speed limits are set accordingly.

The 85th percentile is the speed below which 85% go slower, while 15% go faster on a particular road segment. So, in fact the officials who set speed limits do measure and pay attention to typical speeds. At least in some cases. Exceptions include the 65 mph and 70 mph limits, school zones, etc, etc, etc.

Setting Speed Limits | Caltrans

State of California

dot.ca.gov

Law section

CVC 22350, the Basic Speed Law" uses the term "reasonable and prudent" in defining what is allowed. I call it "fitting and proper".

Correct. The 85 is used to *set* the speed limit when doing surveys. Though I think some people think it's legal to drive what 85% are driving. If 85% are driving 20 over the posted limit, that's the legal speed. This is obviously wrong.

DBV1 · Mar 29, 2023

drtimhill said:
I think so that you dont take your eyes off the road and cause a crash when looking at your phone???

My eyes are not off the road. Again, what is the point of FSD if you have to hold onto the steering wheel and can never look away. Might as well drive on my own. This whole new quicker warning is a step backwards and is no way FSD if you keep getting an annoying warning like that constantly compared to last software version. The last software version was just the right amount of time on the warnings.

Can’t believe anyone would disagree with that statement and think that FSD is something where your hands are on the steering wheel 24/7. Euro cars are way ahead if that is the case. My BMW does not do this and neither does Mercedes.

EVNow · Mar 29, 2023

jabloomf1230 said:
Rather than automating vehicles, it makes more sense to automate the enforcement of traffic laws. Unfortunately, there isn't the political will to do so.

We have camera enforced speed limits and esp. traffic lights here. The ticket is auto generated (probably manually checked) and sent to you with the snap shot as proof.

No revolt yet.

jabloomf1230 · Mar 29, 2023

EVNow said:
We have camera enforced speed limits and esp. traffic lights here. The ticket is auto generated (probably manually checked) and sent to you with the snap shot as proof.

No revolt yethat's because the coverage of automated enforcement is narrowly targeted.

That's because automated enforcement is narrowly targeted. Expand it everywhere and there will be a widespread citizen response. And lawyers will be even more involved in aiding the well-off in beating the enforcement system.

I'm arguing for automated enforcement, but I'm not naive about the ramifications.

archae86 · Mar 29, 2023

jabloomf1230 said:
Rather than automating vehicles, it makes more sense to automate the enforcement of traffic laws. Unfortunately, there isn't the political will to do so.

As did many other towns, Albuquerque had a company install red-light enforcement cameras at a few intersections We started in 2004, and had about 20 intersections equipped. People were dismayed to be caught, especially by a machine. At public demand, warning rumble strips were installed at each of the monitored intersections. "THIS is an intersection where you should obey the law". In 2011 continuance of the program was put to a vote. The camera scheme lost the vote and was removed.

So here the political will was expressly NOT to do so. The rumble strips horrified me. The vote dismayed me. A substantial fraction of all traffic accident aftermath I see here appear to involve bad intersection behavior.

EVNow · Mar 29, 2023

DBV1 said:
Can’t believe anyone would disagree with that statement and think that FSD is something where your hands are on the steering wheel 24/7. Euro cars are way ahead if that is the case. My BMW does not do this and neither does Mercedes.

It’s absolutely essential that you keep your hands on the wheel when using FSD esp. at intersections. There is simply no time to intervene if things go wrong, otherwise.

Your “Euro” cars don’t have FSD.

swedge · Mar 29, 2023

Dewg said:
Correct. The 85 is used to *set* the speed limit when doing surveys. Though I think some people think it's legal to drive what 85% are driving. If 85% are driving 20 over the posted limit, that's the legal speed. This is obviously wrong.

In calif, it is a valid defense to some tickets for exceeding the posted speed limit that your speed was reasonable, prudent and safe, just like 22350 says. This does not mean you won't get a ticket, but that you may be able to get a judge to find you not guilty.

If posted at 65 or 70, though, that is the legal limit, there is no defense. Still, it seems exceeding those is the norm. I have no idea what the CHP policies are, but on the freeways they never seem to pull folks over for driving with the flow, even if it is 72 in a 65. If you want to get busted, fly past those 72 mph'ers to set yourself apart, or do 72 when you and the CHP are the only ones around.

Knightshade · Mar 29, 2023

JulienW said:
I haven't received a Navigation Data update. Is there one being pushed now? I don't have WiFi so I know when I get a Navigation Data update.

View attachment 922823

Green mentioned earlier Tesla pushes small map updates all the time without updating the main map version- including in real time when a route is requested

verygreen said:
And then there are maps. I was exploring mapping recently and discovered that not only Tesla has those pretty frequent incremental updates, but when you have a route set - it asks the mothership and receives a route outline with very detailed info including where various intersections, crosswalks, stop signs, traffic control devices, speed limits, lanes, ... are. Every time you use "navigate to" function (and a bunch of that data is fleet-collected). As you can imagine updates in that sort of thing can have big impact on performance of AP without any code changes.

swedge · Mar 29, 2023

jabloomf1230 said:
Rather than automating vehicles, it makes more sense to automate the enforcement of traffic laws. Unfortunately, there isn't the political will to do so.

That's also why manual enforcement of traffic laws is almost a complete failure. No governor or mayor wants an outraged populace. So the alternative is minimal enforcement and high accident rates.

When you say "automate the enforcement" do you include enforcing speed limits in car's software so that they simply can not exceed the speed limit? Or, how about having the car FSD (Force-Self-Drive) the perpetrator straight to jail? Or. detect the speed in the data feed, and email the ticket?

It is not so much a slippery slope as it would be driving off a cliff. RoboCop vs Robotaxi? (or Thelma and Louise?)

Who would buy such a car? Ah, but Tesla could just push an update.... Hmm.... ;-)

Speaking of automated enforcement, if one buys Tesla insurance, what Safety Score must one maintain before the premium increases?

jabloomf1230 · Mar 29, 2023

swedge said:
When you say "automate the enforcement" do you include enforcing speed limits in car's software so that they simply can not exceed the speed limit? Or, how about having the car FSD (Force-Self-Drive) the perpetrator straight to jail? Or. detect the speed in the data feed, and email the ticket?

It is not so much a slippery slope as it would be driving off a cliff. RoboCop vs Robotaxi? (or Thelma and Louise?)

Who would buy such a car? Ah, but Tesla could just push an update.... Hmm.... ;-)

Speaking of automated enforcement, if one buys Tesla insurance, what Safety Score must one maintain before the premium increases?

I was referring to automated enforcement that is external to the vehicle.

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