FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[Dewg]

Is NHTSA going to come after Tesla for the new Adjusting Speed for Traffic Flow feature in FSD Beta? Like the rolling stop, technically this is illegal.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Is NHTSA going to come after Tesla for the new Adjusting Speed for Traffic Flow feature in FSD Beta? Like the rolling stop, technically this is illegal.

Maybe you could elaborate? (Never mind, understand now from context below.)

Anyway, really glad they got rid of the rolling stop (totally unnecessary!), but curious when they will fix stop signs. Doesn’t seem that difficult.

 

[Acisplat]

Is NHTSA going to come after Tesla for the new Adjusting Speed for Traffic Flow feature in FSD Beta? Like the rolling stop, technically this is illegal.

Tesla shouldn't back down over it; on most highways in California, going the speed limit is even more dangerous than going up to 75-80 with the flow of traffic

 

[zoomer0056]

Tesla shouldn't back down over it; on most highways in California, going the speed limit is even more dangerous than going up to 75-80 with the flow of traffic

I live in SoCal and go to Los Angeles a lot. I never go much more than 5 over the speed limit. At 70 mph I am passing some and some are passing me, 70 mph is the sweet spot. Traveling at 70 mph has never been a problem eventhough some (not many) people go 10 and 15 above the speed limit. A lot of people go the speed limit. The danger is when it rains, some idiots just don't slow to a safe speed.

With that said, maintaining speed for traffic flow is potentially dangerous. Many things come to mind. Speed is lane dependant with slower speeds in the right lanes. Is the car gonna match the speed of someone trying to pass you ... road rage scenario. Is the car gonna get in the fast lane and pass everyone or is that against maintaining speed? Is this the end of street racing where there's no winner because the car is matching your opponent as he speed shifts through the gears? If this is a real feature, and not a YouTuber fabrication, the behavior should be documented and overideable.

 

[Acisplat]

I live in SoCal and go to Los Angeles a lot. I never go much more than 5 over the speed limit. At 70 mph I am passing some and some are passing me, 70 mph is the sweet spot. Traveling at 70 mph has never been a problem eventhough some (not many) people go 10 and 15 above the speed limit. A lot of people go the speed limit. The danger is when it rains, some idiots just don't slow to a safe speed.

With that said, maintaining speed for traffic flow is potentially dangerous. Many things come to mind. Speed is lane dependant with slower speeds in the right lanes. Is the car gonna match the speed of someone trying to pass you ... road rage scenario. Is the car gonna get in the fast lane and pass everyone or is that against maintaining speed? Is this the end of street racing where there's no winner because the car is matching your opponent as he speed shifts through the gears? If this is a real feature, and not a YouTuber fabrication, the behavior should be documented and overideable.

There's some freeways in LA, like the one from Burbank to Monterey Park, where having FSD drop down from 75 to 55 instantly (as soon as it sees the Speed Limit sign) is a crash waiting to happen

 

[rlsd]

What NHTSA should do is to ask CA to enforce the speed limit like other states do instead of making rules but allow people to break rules.
If the state allows 90 mph then the posted speed limit should be 90 mph, no more no less.

 

[zoomer0056]

There's some freeways in LA, like the one from Burbank to Monterey Park, where having FSD drop down from 75 to 55 instantly (as soon as it sees the Speed Limit sign) is a crash waiting to happen

I agree. A sudden slow down is a waiting accident in any situation. Sudden 20 mph slowdown from signage isn't helping. I would expect FSD to not be so squirrely. What about those ignored construction zone speed limits, should FSD succumb to peer pressure here too?

 

[Dewg]

You guys are on Beta 11.x? The old AP sudden braking from 75 to 55 on a speed limit sign was fixed a few versions ago - it's a much smoother slow down now, not nearly as abrupt.

 

[Acisplat]

You guys are on Beta 11.x? The old AP sudden braking from 75 to 55 on a speed limit sign was fixed a few versions ago - it's a much smoother slow down now, not nearly as abrupt.

Apparently not on my car in this particular location

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla shouldn't back down over it; on most highways in California, going the speed limit is even more dangerous than going up to 75-80 with the flow of traffic

If Tesla is serious about ever offering >L2 they'll have no choice.

AFAIK every single state that has legalized self-driving vehicles requires the car maker to certify the system obeys all traffic laws. Which includes speed limits.

 

[ArchHamster]

I don't know how people feel about Kyle's Hogback Challenge from out of spec reviews, I think his scoring system is nearly complete trash. He conflates a lot of variables, the additions/subtractions often feel arbitrary, but there's no one else really even trying to systematically review driver assistant systems so he has the best by default. At least he posts the full footage so you can draw your own conclusion.

He recently ran FSD Beta through the Hogback challenge:

and the conclusion was that it's a close second to Mercedes ADAS system on the interstate. Additionally, he is more impressed with normal autopilot than FSD Beta.

 

[JulienW]

If Tesla is serious about ever offering >L2 they'll have no choice.

AFAIK every single state that has legalized self-driving vehicles requires the car maker to certify the system obeys all traffic laws. Which includes speed limits.

Here is a collage (GSU) experiment here in ATL from a couple of decades ago about how dangers driving the speed limit can be. Keep in mind you could easily substitute 4 Tesla's on FSD Beta with 0 offset (or any future L3 or> cars) that coincidentally got lined up and they would block off traffic the same without any passion or understanding. Also add a few more lanes, heaver traffic and cities with less "southern hospitality" people the "road rage" could easily multiply.

 

[lascavarian]

Here is a collage (GSU) experiment here in ATL from a couple of decades ago about how dangers driving the speed limit can be. Keep in mind you could easily substitute 4 Tesla's on FSD Beta with 0 offset (or any future L3 or> cars) that coincidentally got lined up and they would block off traffic the same without any passion or understanding. Also add a few more lanes, heaver traffic and cities with less "southern hospitality" people the "road rage" could easily multiply.

Meaningless IMO. And Worse, is entangling autonomous driving into a political minefield. This not helpful as are the majority of clickbait on YouTube.

When I want to go fast I go to the track.

In the spirit of actually providing a possible improvement, speed should be set on a sliding scale of cost. Speed limit could be the maximum free speed. Exceeding that speed comes with a cost per mile based on all road maintenance and administration costs.

No more toll roads or use taxes just fees for going faster than the limit. Go as fast as you want but bring your wallet.

Autonomous vehicles would have a separate limit based on demonstrated safety data so could be much higher. YMMV

 

[Pdubs]

“Mind blowing”

He did qualify it this time though with an “imo”

 

[Knightshade]

Here is a collage (GSU) experiment here in ATL from a couple of decades ago about how dangers driving the speed limit can be.

Then it's weird they don't change the speed limit.

Totally irrelevant to the fact autonomous cars are required to follow all traffic laws including speed limits though.

 

[MP3Mike]

Keep in mind you could easily substitute 4 Tesla's on FSD Beta with 0 offset (or any future L3 or> cars) that coincidentally got lined up and they would block off traffic the same without any passion or understanding.

You would have to intervene to keep the blockade, as FSD would automatically move over out of the passing lane as traffic comes up behind.

 

[JulienW]

You would have to intervene to keep the blockade, as FSD would automatically move over out of the passing lane as traffic comes up behind.

But in the example the right (all) lanes are blocked so it can't move over and is "stuck". Remember you can't speed up since that would violate the speed limit so there is no way to get over.

I'm not advocating anything but simply pointing out how human's perceive relative driving speeds is completely different and FSD Beta (and all AI/autonomous) has no passion or feelings for driving.

Another example: Driving on a 35MPH road that has curve after curve with narrow shoulders, steep ditches and trees right up to the edge. We feel like we are moving fast. The road suddenly straightens out with wider lanes, gently sloping shoulder and no trees. All of a sudden we feel like we are driving super slow and will naturally speed up. We all are guilty of this because we are attuned to relative differences and NOT absolute differences. However FSD Beta/autonomous have no passion for relative "feelings" and will continue at the same constant speed.

 

[JulienW]

Just to add another strange example I vaguely remember hearing about. It was some professor talking about how when all cars were L4/L5 in cities. The gist was city driving would ground to a near halt since all VRU's would quickly learn to know that cars would yield to them and WITHOUT any emotion, passion or caring at all. So people would basically take advantage of cars and freely move into the streets everywhere, crossing, skateboarding, walking, running, biking or what ever since there wouldn't be any consequences. This is actually sort of a extreme example of the putting cones on the hoods of Ubers that is happening now. No one cares about disrespecting or "pissing" a machine off. Hell I cursed FSD Beta like a lowly dog this morning and didn't fear any consequences.

 

[MP3Mike]

But in the example the right (all) lanes are blocked so it can't move over and is "stuck". Remember you can't speed up since that would violate the speed limit so there is no way to get over.

No, it wouldn't be stuck. FSD will slow down to get over as well. It is possible that nobody would leave a big enough gap for it to change into, but that is unlikely. (Especially as they could see that it would break the blockade.)

 

[black knight 3]

You guys are on Beta 11.x? The old AP sudden braking from 75 to 55 on a speed limit sign was fixed a few versions ago - it's a much smoother slow down now, not nearly as abrupt.

Haha... Not even... on Beta 11.4.4 and still occurs on several routes that I regularly travel. That's the problem with FSD in general. It's consistently inconsistent. I have seen some improvement in 2 yrs with the program but this and other issues like phantom braking(7+ years now?) still persist to an annoying degree. It makes me wonder if it has a reached a Hardware limitation peak that can not be addressed through the Beta team?