FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[FSDtester#1]

You're joking, right? After the free trial, not only did I not subscribe, I also turned off AP, and rarely even use TACC. It's all garbage and makes you complacent. You need your muscles actively engaged in steering the car to be able to take over in time.

FSDs tried to swerve into oncoming traffic on a 2 lane road at 45 mph. It's hot garbage.

And I bought a 1971 BMW last week. No more tech for me, not ready for general release.

You make @AlanSubie4Life look like an Elon, FSD, and Tesla Fanboy... Do us all a favor. Sell your Tesla and drive that wonderful BMW for the rest of your life.
Have fun with the oil and filter changes, spark plugs, fuel filters, brake replacements and rotor resurfacing, fuel pump, constantly breaking electrical system.

 

[JulienW]

It's everywhere....

Currently, Mercedes allows drivers to watch movies and play games, but the camera monitors mobile phone use and someone falling asleep.

Thanks, I see this now. Was looking in the Mercedes group site and under Autonomous Driving and it coves a lot but doesn't say this. Of course this is a Mercedes ODD limitation and not part of the SAE L3 spec. So Mercedes chose to do this. Not even being able to look at down at your iPhone (I'm sure reading a book would be the same) is a limitation since it is eye tracking.

Autonomous Driving | Mercedes-Benz Group

Autonomous driving is redefining the role of the automobile. It will not only enhance safety and comfort, but also provide us with more free time which was previously spent driving.

group.mercedes-benz.com

 

[uscbucsfan]

Thanks, I see this now. Was looking in the Mercedes group site and under Automation and it coves a lot but doesn't say this. Of course this is a Mercedes ODD limitation and not part of the SAE L3 spec. So Mercedes chose to do this. Not even being able to look at your down at iPhone (Im sure reading a book would be the same) is a limitation.

Autonomous Driving | Mercedes-Benz Group

Autonomous driving is redefining the role of the automobile. It will not only enhance safety and comfort, but also provide us with more free time which was previously spent driving.

group.mercedes-benz.com

I'll have to look, but I believe someone said they could read a book, but it's made to recognize a phone because it's illegal to text and drive in the states it is certified in.

Edit: It says you can read a book, text, answer e-mails, but I think the phone thing is because of texting/phone usage laws.

 

[LSDTester#1]

You make @AlanSubie4Life look like an Elon, FSD, and Tesla Fanboy... Do us all a favor. Sell your Tesla and drive that wonderful BMW for the rest of your life.
Have fun with the oil and filter changes, spark plugs, fuel filters, brake replacements and rotor resurfacing, fuel pump, constantly breaking electrical system.

But his ‘71 Beemer…was my first car. Oh what I’d give to have that CSi back in my garage

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'll have to look, but I believe someone said they could read a book, but it's made to recognize a phone because it's illegal to text and drive in the states it is certified in.

Edit: It says you can read a book, text, answer e-mails, but I think the phone thing is because of texting/phone usage laws.

It is specifically California, mobile phone usage is not allowed at all with no exceptions for L3 (edit: also Nevada according to below report, which claims it's allowed in Germany). The law will have to change to allow it.

We put our blind faith in Mercedes-Benz’s first-of-its-kind autonomous Drive Pilot feature

Watching music videos from the driver’s seat.

www.theverge.com

 

[JulienW]

It is specifically California, mobile phone usage is not allowed at all with no exceptions for L3 (edit: also Nevada according to below report, which claims it's allowed in Germany). The law will have to change to allow it.

We are kinda wondering so far OT but until gottagofast announces exactly when 12.4.2 drops to our cars what else do we have to do. I don't understand why MB doesn't have the L3 system in GA since we allow it and their NA HQ is in ATL. O'well I have nothing else to do since I'm "trapped".

 

[AndrewZ]

If full highway speed becomes real for Mercedes at L3, I assure you that it will be at the speed limit (driver will NOT be able to modify the system), it will be at a very comfortable gap to the lead car, and will not allow for lane changes. Even if the lead car slammed on the brakes, the Merecedes will be able to come to a full stop gracefully and with room to spare.

I think most people would be fine with doing the limit if they could stop paying attention to what the vehicle is doing during that time, the push to speed would be reduced with the burden of the drive.

I just don’t know how they’d get around a moose or deer or whatever flying out of the tree line when the driver has almost zero concept of what’s happening outside the vehicle until it throws a warning that Bambi is about to come through the windshield, if the technology can’t even provide sufficient warning without having some driver checks at at a fraction of full highway speed.

Not a shot at Mercedes, I don’t think anyone can do it with current tech.

 

[sleepydoc]

Not sure why you quoted me since I posted L3 doesn't require monitoring. I was simply responding to others that implied L3 required monitoring. I was posting that EVEN IF Tesla (or any other car manufacturer) required L3 eye tracking monitoring it would not work.

However if problems arise and NHTSA receives complaints they could implement some type of L3 monitoring requirement.

EDIT: Oddly you even Liked my post from yesterday.

View attachment 1059573

Because in the post I cited you talked about L3 and needing monitoring.

 

[rlsd]

He's laughing because we already know all this. Chill = 5% Average = 10% Assertive = 15% So, you're in Average mode, the car detected 65 limit, and set you to 72.

The math doesn't work here. On the same freeway, it set to 72 mph but the speed limits are different at various segments. On another freeway it set to 75 mph. And I always use Chill.

 

[zoomer0056]

I just don’t know how they’d get around a moose or deer or whatever flying out of the tree line when the driver has almost zero concept of what’s happening outside the vehicle until it throws a warning that Bambi is about to come through the windshield

A big animal would be easier to see than a small one. There's already been anecdotal recounts of the car swerving to miss as cat.

I think a thermal imaging camera would be a good additional sensor. Or even better would be a sensor system like The Predator.

 

[sleepydoc]

The logical inconsistency here is amazing! You can text and answer emails or watch a movie but not use your phone. You can wear sunglasses but it needs to be able to tell if you’re asleep. L3 is driving but needs attention monitoring software even though you don’t have to pay attention.

If you read Mercedes’ information they clearly state that the system will put on the hazards and come to a safe stop if the driver doesn’t respond. That’s all the system needs to do. Coincidentally, it would need be able to do this regardless of any attention monitoring software to handle cases of driver incapacitation.

For the manufacturer, the cynic in me says, the main thing they need is a way to tell if the driver was asleep, which allows them to deny liability in the case the driver fails to respond within 10 seconds and the gradual stop maneuver fails to prevent an accident.

See above - they don’t need to detect a sleeping driver, just be able to handle one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The logical inconsistency here is amazing! You can text and answer emails or watch a movie but not use your phone. You can wear sunglasses but it needs to be able to tell if you’re asleep. L3 is driving but needs attention monitoring software even though you don’t have to pay attention.

L3 was always a contradiction like that! No one said it wasn't! You are allowed to not pay attention, yet you are still expected to respond in seconds (it's literally in the spec in both SAE and the UN spec the EU follows)!

You are in an awkward middle ground where you are allowed to do some activities, yet not allowed to do others because you remain a "driver" of sorts (one expected to take over in seconds when the car requests so).

Note people here aren't saying it's a good/logical/consistent spec or that they support it, we are just pointing out what the spec is.

If you read Mercedes’ information they clearly state that the system will put on the hazards and come to a safe stop if the driver doesn’t respond. That’s all the system needs to do. Coincidentally, it would need be able to do this regardless of any attention monitoring software to handle cases of driver incapacitation.


See above - they don’t need to detect a sleeping driver, just be able to handle one.

Except they can't with enough reliability ensure that doesn't still result in an accident, that's why it's L3 and not L4! That's also why they need to detect a sleeping driver!

It bears repeating that Tesla has a similar function too to pull to a stop. The existence of that function does not eliminate the need for driver monitoring.

 

[Dewg]

The math doesn't work here. On the same freeway, it set to 72 mph but the speed limits are different at various segments. On another freeway it set to 75 mph. And I always use Chill.

Since we've done all the calculations, and tested with multiple confirmations, the numbers I gave are correct.

Do the following to test:

1) Drive manually on the freeway, set the profile to Chill (which will be 5% over the limit), and drive just under the speed limit
2) You'll see the limit shown as 65MPH (assuming that's the limit it saw on the freeway), and the FSD limit as 68MPH (in grey), which is 5% over
3) Engage FSD - you'll be set to 68MPH

Now - disengage FSD, and set the profile to Average - repeat and you'll see the limit is 72MPH in grey, etc.

 

[lzolman]

You make @AlanSubie4Life look like an Elon, FSD, and Tesla Fanboy... Do us all a favor. Sell your Tesla and drive that wonderful BMW for the rest of your life.
Have fun with the oil and filter changes, spark plugs, fuel filters, brake replacements and rotor resurfacing, fuel pump, constantly breaking electrical system.

Hey, give the poor guy a break. We already know from all the MS owners with 21" wheels that practicality is not always the first priority...

 

[MP3Mike]

Since we've done all the calculations, and tested with multiple confirmations, the numbers I gave are correct.

Do the following to test:

1) Drive manually on the freeway, set the profile to Chill (which will be 5% over the limit), and drive just under the speed limit
2) You'll see the limit shown as 65MPH (assuming that's the limit it saw on the freeway), and the FSD limit as 68MPH (in grey), which is 5% over
3) Engage FSD - you'll be set to 68MPH

Now - disengage FSD, and set the profile to Average - repeat and you'll see the limit is 72MPH in grey, etc.

This is only applicable if you have the ASSO, Automatic Set Speed Offset, feature enabled, right? Otherwise, it just uses the offset percentage you set on the Autopilot options page regardless of which mode, Chill/Average/Assertive, you are in.

Differences can be if FSD uses a speed limit sign it read, or incorrect information from its database. (Even after the recent map updates it is still more than a year behind speed limit changes in my area.) But that would result in the wrong speed limit being displayed, and then the offset from that for the FSD limit.

 

[OxBrew]

You make @AlanSubie4Life look like an Elon, FSD, and Tesla Fanboy... Do us all a favor. Sell your Tesla and drive that wonderful BMW for the rest of your life.
Have fun with the oil and filter changes, spark plugs, fuel filters, brake replacements and rotor resurfacing, fuel pump, constantly breaking electrical system.

I have to spend 2-3 years rebuilding it first. Might put 500 miles a year on it.

Long term plan is to yard out the Y drivetrain and put it in the 71 2002.

*braking

Last 02 I had went 75k miles with nothing but oil changes, points and plugs. Pretty bomb proof cars, and no rattles.

Sorry for the OT. Wait, what is the tooic here? V12? Why dies every discussion drift back to SAE levels? So freaking boring.

 

[FSDtester#1]

I have to spend 2-3 years rebuilding it first. Might put 500 miles a year on it.

Long term plan is to yard out the Y drivetrain and put it in the 71 2002.

*braking

Last 02 I had went 75k miles with nothing but oil changes, points and plugs. Pretty bomb proof cars, and no rattles.

Sorry for the OT. Wait, what is the tooic here? V12? Why dies every discussion drift back to SAE levels? So freaking boring.

I like the topic change... If we don't stop it soon, it will turn back into the definition of "Driving".... That was my favorite... /S

 

[Daniel in SD]

The logical inconsistency here is amazing! You can text and answer emails or watch a movie but not use your phone. You can wear sunglasses but it needs to be able to tell if you’re asleep. L3 is driving but needs attention monitoring software even though you don’t have to pay attention.

If you read Mercedes’ information they clearly state that the system will put on the hazards and come to a safe stop if the driver doesn’t respond. That’s all the system needs to do. Coincidentally, it would need be able to do this regardless of any attention monitoring software to handle cases of driver incapacitation.


See above - they don’t need to detect a sleeping driver, just be able to handle one.

The vehicle screen will alert you to take over. If you’re staring at your phone you might miss the alerts. Though I think it starts tugging on the seatbelt too which seems like it would be hard to ignore.

 

[zoomer0056]

Though I think it starts tugging on the seatbelt too which seems like it would be hard to ignore.

I've never heard that before. Are you saying the car actively changes seat belt tension to shake the driver?

 

[MP3Mike]

I've never heard that before. Are you saying the car actively changes seat belt tension to shake the driver?

Yes, some cars actually physically pull on the seat belt to get the attention of the driver. Others vibrate the seat bottom and/or pulse/stab the brakes. (Tesla just flashes the screen and beeps loudly at the driver.)