FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[rlsd]

He reset the cameras and did a new calibration?

There is a button to clear current camera calibration info on the screen. If you press that button the carmeras will recalibrate automatically when you drive about 15-20 miles. During recalibration you won't be able to use FSD. When recalibration is complete you need to park the car to reenable FSD.

 

[aronth5]

It depends on the road. The Auto/MAX is worse than the regular on 2 lane roads. I have one that is 55mph and it wants to stay at 40 mph. If a car comes up behind me it will hit 47, but that appears to be the max it will go on that road.

On 12.3.1, it's a bit better, but still mostly 1-2 mph under the speed limit...rarely will go over unless is an open wide road with traffic going faster.

Agree. Yes slowness is an issue for many roads but the auto max speed feature has also solved several smaller hilly/winding roads where the speed was too fast and I couldn't use V11. V12.3 handles them perfectly. Somehow Tesla needs to find a happy medium. If the chill/avg/assertive settings actually worked that would help some.

 

[JulienW]

Why?

Mercedes already has L3 deployed in at least 2 US states without any 'new' regulation.

Including Nevada- which is one of the states you only need to file that self-certification form I already mentioned.

When the system is running, the human in the seat is not driving so they aren't breaking any laws against texting while driving or anything like it.

I think Tesla would want to wait at least until they had v12 on the highway before applying for L3.

Of course Tesla is not likely going for such a limited ODD.

 

[powertoold]

I think Tesla would want to wait at least until they had v12 on the highway before applying for L3.

Of course Tesla is not likely going for such a limited ODD.

End-to-end pretty much rules out L3

I guess they can run the V11 stack as the ODD referee, but it's a chicken and egg problem: if the V11 stack is good enough to reliably identify the ODD limits, then V12 should be able to handle it.

 

[Knightshade]

I think Tesla would want to wait at least until they had v12 on the highway before applying for L3.

Of course Tesla is not likely going for such a limited ODD.

What do you intend for "applying for L3" to mean here?

Because again, they don't need to "apply" for anything. If they think it's good enough for L3 today, they can turn it on, as L3, today in a number of US states.

Also, L3 doesn't tell you anything about the limits of the ODD. You could have an L3 with a near-infinite ODD. There's no special designation of level based on how wide or narrow the ODD is, just around if it HAS an ODD at all.



Really simplified distinctions:

L3: Has an ODD (but can be VERY wide), but requires a human to perform the DDT fallback task (ie a human must take over to insure a minimum risk condition if the system is ever unable to drive for any reason)

L4: Exactly the same as L3, except the car can perform the DDT fallback task to insure a minimum risk condition if the system is ever unable to drive for any reason.

L5: Exactly the same as L4, except no ODD.

 

[Supcom]

From my personal experience, everyone who I’m friends with in real life that have Teslas, does have FSD, including my own SO

Given that the all estimates of the take rate are pretty low, I'd say that your friends are not representative of the owners as a whole.

 

[kabin]

...none of that answers the actual question.

He said L3 would require more government involvement. It factually does not- and Mercedes having an L3 on the road in at least one self-certifying state, without having required any more government involvment, is proof of that.

WHY Mercedes launched the system has nothing to do with the regulations in play.... (esp. when the OTHER state they have it in so far is CA, one of the few that actually does require real approval)


That's not to say Tesla might not get scrutiny from some government agency after launching L3. But they don't need "regulatory approval" to launch it in the first place.

They need to say:
It's capable of L3
We have insurance
It follows all traffic laws.
Trust Us Bro.


That's it. They do that, and it can go on the road today in many US states. And some more of them after they file a form that says the same thing.

No "regulators" are standing in the way of that.





Again there's nothing in the law requiring any specific sensors- so that's irrelevant to the discussion

I must have missed the forum election for topic discussion gawd.

Mercedes reportedly has assumed responsibility for L3 accidents. For multiple reasons that ain't gonna happen with Tesla's vision only. And aside from maybe Tesla, insurance companies won't cover a vision only Tesla L3 system making it virtually obsolete.

 

[sleepydoc]

Thanks @Knighshade, I figured you would jump in on this. I also agree I don't expect Tesla to do L3 anytime soon since L3 is not aligned with Elon's robotaxi push which I get. Still L3 has major potential if done right.

at what point does the Tesla board of directors realize that while L3 may not be aligned with Elon's robotaxi vision, it most certainly would be aligned with their visions of Tesla sales?

 

[aronth5]

I must have missed the forum election for topic discussion gawd.

Mercedes reportedly has assumed responsibility for L3 accidents. For multiple reasons that ain't gonna happen with Tesla's vision only. And aside from maybe Tesla, insurance companies won't cover a vision only Tesla L3 system making it virtually obsolete.

And you know this how?

 

[uscbucsfan]

I must have missed the forum election for topic discussion gawd.

Mercedes reportedly has assumed responsibility for L3 accidents. For multiple reasons that ain't gonna happen with Tesla's vision only. And aside from maybe Tesla, insurance companies won't cover a vision only Tesla L3 system making it virtually obsolete.

If Tesla ever implements a L3 or above system, they will be forced to accept liability. Even if they put a statement saying, "You are still responsible if your car crashes" they would absolutely lose that battle in court and with the NHTSA as they would strip the system down if something like that occurred.

Tesla knows this, but all of this FSD and robotaxi talk is way premature....V12 isn't even a perfected level 2 system right now.

 

[Knightshade]

I must have missed the forum election for topic discussion gawd.

I mean, you were replying to a post about a question on a specific topic, so it seems fair to point out the reply didn't answer the question. If you wanted to post on a different topic why'd you reply to an existing one?

Mercedes reportedly has assumed responsibility for L3 accidents.

Yes, reportedly.

The fine print is a bit more complex than that.

No, Mercedes-Benz will NOT take the blame for a Drive Pilot crash

Summary: Anyone turning on Mercedes-Benz Level 3 Drive Pilot should presume they will be blamed for any crash, even though journalists are ...

safeautonomy.blogspot.com

the MB position is that the human driver retains the duty of care for potential harm to other road users when using their Level 3 Drive Pilot system -- even while playing Tetris. Their representative admitted this on stage a couple weeks ago in Vienna Austria. I was in the crowd to hear it. Quoting from Junko Yoshida in that article: "Yes, you heard it right. Despite its own hype, Mercedes-Benz is saying that the driving responsibility still rests on the human driver in today’s L3 system."

For multiple reasons that ain't gonna happen with Tesla's vision only. And aside from maybe Tesla, insurance companies won't cover a vision only Tesla L3 system making it virtually obsolete.

Citation required for any insurance company having a specific sensor requirement here.

 

[Supcom]

If Tesla ever implements a L3 or above system, they will be forced to accept liability.

You state this as if it's an insurmountable roadblock. Tesla can assume the risk. If they like, they can get insurance from another insurer to cover their risk. The cost of the insurance gets built into the cost of subscribing or purchasing the system. The only question is how much the liability insurance costs the consumer.

Tesla also has the advantage in that, should a critical problem crop up, they could disable an L3+ system almost instantly and roll out a fix when ready. That would reduce the total liability tremendously.

 

[uscbucsfan]

You state this as if it's an insurmountable roadblock.

No, I didn't.

It was in response to Tesla accepting liability or not...it doesn't matter if they publicly state they will or won't.

 

[hobertg]

Are we now waiting on 12.3.2 with 2024.2.x in April VS 12.3.1 to continue?

That would mean 2023.44.30.x next versions will be auto park and ASS with the latest FSD?

Lot of X posts and Elons comment of multiple updates coming every two weeks (April/Early May) just trying to keep it straight on what to expect.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Are we now waiting on 12.3.2 with 2024.2.x in April VS 12.3.1 to continue?

That would mean 2023.44.30.x next versions will be auto park and ASS with the latest FSD?

Lot of X posts and Elons comment of multiple updates coming every two weeks (April/Early May) just trying to keep it straight on what to expect.

I don't think there are any confirmations of ASS coming in 12.3.2 and Auto Park is in 2024.8, I believe.

There's a chance neither of those get on there.

 

[sleepydoc]

No. I'm pretty sure Mercedes is more than vision only so there's at least some design consideration for redundancy/safety. Also, I've yet to see FSD respond quick enough for last second adjacent traffic cut-ins, etc.

I had it respond in well under a second (I'd estimate 2-400msec) when a pedestrian came out from behind a car.

 

[sleepydoc]

2. Need a way to save a specific route so that I don't have to disengage every day when the car wants to take a slightly less-than-ideal route to get to work.

Two options I can think of:
1. If you are parked, the nav system will often give options for routing and let you pick one.
2. If that doesn't work, pick a way point that is along your preferred route, then cancel the stop as you get close, letting the system continue to your final destination. It's a bit of a kluge but it's the best I got.

 

[JulienW]

Ya'll guys are confusing me on the L3 debate. The ONLY ODD Tesla could handle on L3 at this time is on the highway (Interstate) and limited. So this would be v11 at this time. There is absolutely NO way it could be even close to meeting L3 in city driving since the car must "request" you take over. This requires the car to KNOW it can't do something and then warn you in advance. As of now it may run into a wall without ANY warning or "awareness" it is f'ing up.

 

[Patrick66]

There’s 2 roads that come together into a curve and the car sees the stop sign on the other road and it thinks it’s on my road so it almost stops

I have been having that for months (on autopilot). Two in a row on opposite sides.

 

[hobertg]

I don't think there are any confirmations of ASS coming in 12.3.2 and Auto Park is in 2024.8, I believe.

There's a chance neither of those get on there.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1772667344369627334