FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[AlanSubie4Life]

It's very probably not training, but testing, along with data collection of the outputs of the control network for the many different scenarios that they'll face at that turn. There's no point in overtraining for Chuck's turn because that would compromise the system's ability to handle other UPL geometries.

Tesla may have a bunch of teams like that, testing all manner of scenarios. We just happen to know about Chuck's.

Yes, the first batch of training where Chuck thought they were doing the driving themselves happened after initial 12.3 release.

So it is unlikely those extra clips are incorporated in any 12.3.x release since we haven’t seen any evidence of retraining for that release - just minor changes to behavior.

So it would make some sense that they were now actually testing the retrained solution.

I certainly hope 12.3.3 did not incorporate any new training!

 

[Therealm80]

I’ve had some weird oddities too. One time it started to go at a green light and then just stopped immediately faking the car behind me out and making me intervene. Also, I did try the blinker to make it turn with no destination in the map and I hit the turn signal just before a right turn lane and it actually started to enter the turn lane, got about 3/4 of the way and then changed its mind and started to move back over at which point I took over as well. The speed thing is getting better. I wonder if pressing the accelerator trains it somehow.

 

[kabin]

It seems like cheating that they are training specifically on Chuck's UPL. They know that Chuck will post about the progress at that corner, so they are training specifically for the test.

It's a little bit like VW designing the cars to perform well when the environmental tests are performed. Just a little bit.

Am I misunderstanding?

There will likely always be a few scenarios FSD can't gracefully solve. Unfortunately when they hit a brick wall Tesla resorts to gaming the design by adding a crutch and/or over weighting the data. Hopefully we don't start seeing weird behaviors like 10.69's omnipotent turn-right to turn-left.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

With the prepping for, and participating in today's family and astronomical event eclipsing excitement over V12, we didn't get a full chance to test it until this evening on our drive home.

On the way there, my husband would engage on highway and disengage at the top of an exit ramp. So no proper testing on Sunday. Today, it was an easy enough drive home so I asked him to engage when get left the parking lot of the hotel. He was skeptical because I never ask for FSD on city streets.

Getting us the few blocks to the freeway was nothing. When I noted eclipse traffic jams after a logical stopping point for dinner, I added the waypoint.

First disengagement came because the car turned into the wrong parking lot, about 20' early. But it was the first time we'd stuck with FSD on city streets past the top of exit ramps (it had always effed up before we'd get to our destination.) So this was pretty good. A typical mistake a confused tourist might make.

Back on the road after eating, hit the tailback from an accident. The car had told us getting off and going by on country roads would add 1 minute so we stayed on the freeway. It was wrong, staying on the highway added 15 minutes to the trip (but easy enough driving with the car handling it.)

Second disengagement was V11's poor lane choice meant last minute movement into the right lane to exit and even when it made it, it didn't attempt to exit. My husband re-engaged as we exited because there's an immediately 4 lane change at the bottom of the ramp. V12 did just fine (although it wasn't a challenge from a traffic volume standpoint.)

Third disengagement was city streets and intersection it will be going through all the time. Two lanes come up to a light with one being left only and the other straight or right and the road beyond the intersection is only one lane. The car chose the left lane (despite the left turn only lane marking showing on the display, It stopped 2nd car back, the right lane filled in and when the light changed the car had no intention of turning left as required despite my husband turning on the left turn signal. So a disengagement and we did the last 3 blocks home because of 4 stop signs and the amount of traffic behind us (all cutting through to avoid the backed up bridge traffic with others returning home from eclipse viewing.)

The verdict from the driver? "It's a couple of years away from robotaxi but it pretty darn good."

Verdict from the wife? "You are an attentive enough supervisor that I don't mind you using FSD on city streets now."

I still haven't had my chance with it beyond our tiny area because I didn't have time on Sunday as I rushed to the SC to try and fix the "Software update available connect to WiFi" situation before heading off on the trip. It is still there. The release notes still indicate I'd be getting 2024.3.10 (already installed) and the notice disappears from the app when I connected to WiFi at the SC. The problem is that there's no indication of what is trying to download (the app says I have 2024.3.10 installed but that's what I'm to download), no orange download notice on the screen (this only appears in the App and on TeslaFi, not in the car) and no progress bar at all when I'm connected to wifi. So I sat there for 20 minutes and then did a tire size reboot (twice, obviously) and still have the issue.

We tried to connect to the hotel WiFi last night since the car would be connected for a period of time, but couldn't get to a sign in page to enter the password either through the connect to wifi part or trying to trigger something using the browser.

I still haven't tried a screen reboot. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll reinstall from the service menu. I didn't want to try that while away from home in a place with a long tow to a Tesla SC. If that doesn't work, I'll get the SC involved again. All I know is that on Friday, while not appearing to download anything, it jumped on my phone hotspot and used 2.4GB of my data and it was my carrier that sent me a warning that I'd burned through half my data for the month.

 

[rlsd]

There was a posting earlier (I think on this thread) that in the absence of a route, you could direct the car's turning behavior at a stop sign by holding the turn signal down in the direction you want the car to turn.

I tried doing this today. In my neighborhood, I picked a Tee intersection and first approached the stop sign on FSD with no route. Without touching the turn signal, the car, as expected, turned right.

I repeated the test by holding the turn signal down to try to force a left turn. I activated the turn signal before the car turned on the signal on it's own so that I would not be competing with a decision already made. The left turn signal remained on and the car ignored it and made a perfect right turn.

So, unless there's some secret to doing this, I find that using the turn signal to cause the car to turn one way or the other to be not a thing. That is, unless you want to turn in the direction it wants to go.

I tried that with v12.2.1 too. I remember someone on TMC asked me to try that. It didn't work.

 

[Supcom]

I tried that with v12.2.1 too. I remember someone on TMC asked me to try that. It didn't work.

Also tried the fabled window up button to clear the wheel nag. Also did not work.

 

[gottagofast]

There was a posting earlier (I think on this thread) that in the absence of a route, you could direct the car's turning behavior at a stop sign by holding the turn signal down in the direction you want the car to turn.

I tried doing this today. In my neighborhood, I picked a Tee intersection and first approached the stop sign on FSD with no route. Without touching the turn signal, the car, as expected, turned right.

I repeated the test by holding the turn signal down to try to force a left turn. I activated the turn signal before the car turned on the signal on it's own so that I would not be competing with a decision already made. The left turn signal remained on and the car ignored it and made a perfect right turn.

So, unless there's some secret to doing this, I find that using the turn signal to cause the car to turn one way or the other to be not a thing. That is, unless you want to turn in the direction it wants to go.

if i have nothing in the navigation FSD always turns right when a straight road comes to an end, turn signal does nothing except change lanes

 

[dhanson865]

How many free FSD trials have there been?

How many free FSD trials between now and robotaxi day (Aug 2024)

Note: I want all the free trial months they'll give me, but they haven't got me putting down $12,000 yet.

 

[Kablooie]

Today I was in a left lane and had a short distance to get into the right lane for a freeway entrance. There was a big truck in the right lane, blocking my move, and cars in front and back so I couldn’t change the lane. We stopped at a red light about a block from the fwy entrance, the truck on my right. As soon as the light turned red, FSD gunned the car so it quickly passed the slow moving truck, got into the right lane and made the fwy entrance perfectly. — I was surprised that it had enough awareness to make this move, exactly as I would have done! I made two 15 mile city trips near downtown Los Angeles with no interventions at all.

 

[JulienW]

Since 24.8.x has so far not gotten FSDS wonder if it may be skipped since it is about time for 24.12.x to be released. Speculating that 24.12.x may be the first release with FSDS imbedded as part of the release. That would push the trial for the 24.8.x people at least a week or 2 longer but so far no evidence of it coming to 24.8.x. It would also kinda explain why 24.8.x hasn't been released if they are working on 24.12.x/FSDS integration.

Crazy wondering mind: When FSDS becomes a standard integration into the software Tesla may drop the separate FSDS number altogether (since it is no longer a Beta software number) and we just receive FSDS updates included in the newest Software like all other systems. Just improvements/changes listed in the Release Notes.

 

[Kablooie]

Today I was in a left lane and had a short distance to get into the right lane for a freeway entrance. There was a big truck in the right lane, blocking my move, and cars in front and back so I couldn’t change the lane. We stopped at a red light about a block from the fwy entrance, the truck on my right. As soon as the light turned red, FSD gunned the car so it quickly passed the slow moving truck, got into the right lane and made the fwy entrance perfectly. — I was surprised that it had enough awareness to make this move, exactly as I would have done! I made two 15 mile city trips near downtown Los Angeles with no interventions at all.

Oops. I meant as soon as the light turned green, not red. I don’t see an option to edit my post.

 

[Mardak]

How's people experiences with 12.x handling multiple straight lanes that shift across the intersection? I estimate that most of them 12.3.3 incorrectly drives directly straight instead of angling, so it often encroaches on the adjacent lane also going straight. There's even some cases where the lanes shift to the right, but 12.x tends to drive towards the oncoming traffic lane with a late adjustment to avoid oncoming vehicles.

These are regressions from 10.2 released October 2021. The old stack had very explicit traffic flow lane perception to avoid these issues, so I'm not sure if this provides some additional evidence of end-to-end control not making use of old perception.

 

[OldManCan]

Not sure if these have been mentioned before. I have been using FSD v 12.3.3 for a while and have about 500 miles on it. I agree with all positive remarks on how much it has improved. Few areas where I am consistently seeing issues and will look out for future improvements :

1) Too late to signal ahead of turns, lane changes.

2) Too many unnecessary lane changes, even with the Minimal Lane Change setting taken for the trip. Sometimes I just want to stay in the lane moving at speed limit and flow with the traffic. FSD just wants to make lane changes unrelated to route following etc. When it signals I signal the other way and often the car has started moving in the direction FSD wanted to change to and then it swerves back to my lane which creates passenger discomfort as well as confusion for the cars behind.

3) Yellow caution speed limit signs that are placed ahead of tight turns/curves are ignored. This results in the car speeding through tight turns often causing risk of going out of lane. Either map data or cautionary speed limit signs need to be used in future to slow the car to speeds that are suitable for the curves ahead.

4) Multiple lane left or right turns at traffic lights - Rule is that each vehicle should keep to its lane using the turn radius markings on the road. If I'm on the left lane FSD initiates the turn and cuts over to the right side ending the turn in the right lane. This happens almost 100% when the right lane is free and it happened at least once with another vehicle on the right lane resulting in my car cutting in front of the other guy. Often it does not signal either and just creeps to the adjacent lane.

5) Creeps too close to the car ahead on freeway sometimes. EAP/Autopilot has the 1 to 7 setting on how close we like to follow car ahead. FSD settings are on most conservative/Chill side and it gets closer than what EAP would do on proximity setting = 7.

Overall I am very pleased with the progress and now use FSD approximately 95% of the time. I take over in known challenge situations and hope that these will get less and less over time.

 

[David Wang]

the biggest issue that i've encountered with fsd v12.3.3 is incorrect map data. I've been in situations where the map is showing a lane is suppose to go straight, but the actual lane marking shows that its a left hand turn. Fsd ends up going straight instead of turning left.

It seems like fsd v12.3.3 doesn't read the lane markings and goes by the map data only.

In future versions, fsd should read the lane markings and if its different than the map data, it should use the lane markings as the guide.

 

[David Wang]

Seems like I don't have enough posts to be able to edit my existing post.

Another issue i've encountered is there are some roads with a bicycle marking in the middle of the street and fsd thinks its either a speed bump or debris and it slows down for the bicycle marking.

 

[mtndrew1]

On a five mile round trip last night FSD:

1. Changed into a lane that ended immediately after the maneuver.

2. Got in the right lane to make a left.

3. Pulled into oncoming traffic to make an illegal left into a parking lot.

4. Tried to make a left turn at a right turn only location.

5. Did a very slick maneuver to pass a car illegally blocking a lane.

I guess 1/5 is decent.

 

[point Wheels]

Maybe Tesla is using data where the car is aggressive in making unprotected turns and so V12 is learning that behavior. Here's the thing though: that aggressive behavior may be appropriate in certain scenarios but not in others.

 

[Todd Burch]

How's people experiences with 12.x handling multiple straight lanes that shift across the intersection? I estimate that most of them 12.3.3 incorrectly drives directly straight instead of angling, so it often encroaches on the adjacent lane also going straight. There's even some cases where the lanes shift to the right, but 12.x tends to drive towards the oncoming traffic lane with a late adjustment to avoid oncoming vehicles.

These are regressions from 10.2 released October 2021. The old stack had very explicit traffic flow lane perception to avoid these issues, so I'm not sure if this provides some additional evidence of end-to-end control not making use of old perception.

I haven't noticed any issues with shifting lanes. It's worked well for me.

Not sure all of this is necessarily a regression though. It might require more training to get more refined, but being controlled by AI E2E means that the car may not follow lines like gospel (as programmed on v11) in order to achieve other goals like a smoother ride...just as a human would cut across a curve if there are no other cars around to make for a smoother ride.

 

[Hiline]

I wish FSD would have a way for the driver to alter routing decisions on the drive. I want to be able to say things like 'skip the next exit' and have FSD skip that exit because I'm familiar with the traffic patterns following that particular exit.

 

[KArnold]

FSD would have a way for the driver to alter routing decisions on the drive.

V11 allows you to choose alternate routes displayed while driving. I use this often to take the next exit or similar situations. On rare occasion it's necessary to cycle through the map display to refresh available routes but I've never had it not give a desired option especially when close to the desired route change.

Is it different in v12 or are you referring to something else?