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IMO even if one opines differently on whether or not AP2 has reached AP1 parity, that should at the very least be sufficiently unclear topic to warrant "agree to disagree" instead of calling one side a half-truth.

I don't deny that. There are sufficient valid arguments to claim they have not reached parity as much as there are to claim they have.

But a comment like, "Can't even drive reliably on highways, yet" is an insult to many many folks who have driven thousands of miles on long distance travel on AP2 comfortably and often without even disengaging for hundreds of miles.
 
I often find myself rereading a post before I send it. More frequently than I’d like to admit, it says something I didn’t intend to say, so I either edit it or delete it.

If you find that you’re often misunderstood, I recommend trying the same tactic. It could be that you’re not saying what you think you’re saying.
OTOH that would make it really hard to get out so many posts!
 
Tesla doesn't need FSD. They need to regain the buzz they had with AP1. Regardless of comparisons between AP1 and AP2, they have taken a significant hit to their reputation in this critical area. The huge expense of putting AP hardware in all the model 3 while many drivers distrust the software capability is not a good place to be.

But I do think 2018 will be a good year for AP as long as that development team has stabilized and Elon isn't telling them what they will achieve.

The semi is interesting with what looks to be eight forward looking cameras. I smell the dual system Tesla may need to have a chance of getting convoys approved for testing on public highways.
 
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I'd like to believe there's magic. Mama told me magic or illusion doesn't mean it's fake.

Robotics pioneer Rodney Brooks debunks AI hype seven ways

That's a great article, thanks for sharing it. I like Brooks a lot and I have a bunch of his books of both the lay and the professional flavor.

He makes a lot of good points directly and those are mostly true, but he also implies something else which is important and false. By providing a list of ways that people warning of a potential great leap forward in AI could be mistaken he strongly suggests that people who seriously consider that scenario are not thinking carefully, and he also implies that great leaps forward do not occur. This is demonstrably false, especially in the field of neural networks today, because we've seen them happen recently and the closer you look at the field the more of them you will see.

The 2012 ImageNet results were one of those great leaps forward. The world's assembled masters of vision processing technology stood agape as a technique which nearly all of them believed was not ever going to work posted a set of results that exceeded anything they expected to see for years, perhaps decades. And in the ensuing years this new NN technique time and again outstripped the most optimistic expectations of experts and led us into a new era where problems that have stood against the best efforts of our finest minds for *decades* are falling left and right just as soon as some grad student has the time to apply NN to the question.

DeepMind's work with RL applied to Atari video games made the cover of the most prestigious peer reviewed journal in the world not because it was amusing, or well presented, or a good human interest story. It took that honor because it was an astounding result, far ahead of anything that the field expected. Subsequently Deep Mind's work with AlphaGo Fan, AlphaGo Lee, AlphaGo Master, and now AlphagoZero has step-by-step crushed out expectations for what is possible. Yes - those are four different systems which have elements in common, but each of them include fundamental new capabilities and each represents a giant leap beyond the performance of it's predecessor.

In the world of AI today the people who want to argue that further 'miracles' will not appear now have the burden of proof to bear. Of course it is very hard to say exactly where this all leads because these giant leaps occur in a hard to guess sequence and often in hard to guess directions. But the idea that more giant leaps are not coming is the least likely thing of all.
 
"Often" without disengaging?!
Do you understand what "reliably" means?
I was also curious what you meant by the statement below. Could you clarify what exactly you mean by "reliably"? I just posted my experience with FW .44 on my trip this weekend. 173 miles each way. So a pretty good trip for me. On the way it was light traffic but on the way back there was more traffic coming home from Thanksgiving weekend. I understand people feel that California Highways are not representative of most but I can say Autopilot was very smooth and "reliable" to me. I was very relaxed and used autopilot 99.9% of the time. The biggest problem was when changing freeways (which are not that many) but I had to reduce TACC to the posted speed of the transition which meant probably easier/faster to do it manually but I was trying to see what it could do. My point is I did not see any of the very strange actions that some report. So how would you explain my experience and your comment? Based on my personal watching of a lot of youtube videos I am sure I am not in the minority.

"Can't even drive reliably on highways, yet"
 
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"Can't even drive reliably on highways, yet"

People do have wildly different experiences, which to me suggests AP2 may not be "generalizing" yet quite as well as AP1. What works on Tesla's home turf may not simply be as good elsewhere. At least I've experienced and noted anecdotal regional differences. Maybe the NN simply is better in California.

banned-66611 drives in Europe, as do I.

That said, for me the latest versions certainly have been vastly better than earlier ones, but there are still the occasional issues.
 
For full self diving it has to cope with all roads, car parks, unmapped driveways and more. It has to be perfect all the time because there might not even be a qualified driver in the car.

In that light, "works for me on highly regulated roads" isn't much of an argument.
 
In the world of AI today the people who want to argue that further 'miracles' will not appear now have the burden of proof to bear. Of course it is very hard to say exactly where this all leads because these giant leaps occur in a hard to guess sequence and often in hard to guess directions. But the idea that more giant leaps are not coming is the least likely thing of all.

That's all well and good -- but how does this translate to FSD? Clearly a miracle is needed for Elon's end of year pronouncement but it also seems like progress is afoot.

Drove 1600 miles over weekend. 4 disengagements. Not bad. One was due to blizzard snow deactivating AP for 15 minutes. Came back online and didn't have any further issues. If they can figure out the giant freeway curve in Cleveland then that will eliminate 2 disengagements.
 
That's all well and good -- but how does this translate to FSD? Clearly a miracle is needed for Elon's end of year pronouncement but it also seems like progress is afoot.

Drove 1600 miles over weekend. 4 disengagements. Not bad. One was due to blizzard snow deactivating AP for 15 minutes. Came back online and didn't have any further issues. If they can figure out the giant freeway curve in Cleveland then that will eliminate 2 disengagements.

My comment is only intended to rebut the implication that AI, and by extension FSD which is fundamentally an AI problem, is much further away than proponents would have us believe. In the AI world today the future is coming in big steps which happen quite frequently. The step that makes FSD possible on AP2 hardware could come at almost any moment and perhaps it already has.

Clarke's first law is thoroughly relevant here and Brooks was right to highlight it at the start of his article.

I can't support any statement that FSD will be here in any particular short period of time because we - as in the broad technical community - don't yet know how to do it. There is as yet no existence proof of a machine that's been properly shown capable and it's not the kind of thing that you can work out on a blackboard. We won't have an upper bound for how hard it is until someone demos it. It's possible that working systems or nearly working system exist but aren't yet public. If they do exist then some people know it and I would expect Musk to be one of those people. So I listen to what he says very carefully while keeping in mind that he's quite aggressive with his timeframes and fairly liberal with his aspirational objectives. His time estimates seem to be a lower bound rather than a good prediction.

As for me - I claim FSD is coming to AP2. This claim is no more based on faith than a claim that S&P500 will eventually cross 3000. It's the overwhelmingly likely outcome of powerful trends that have been decades if not centuries in the making. I've been watching capabilities and requirements for this application very closely for a very long time. I can't say with accuracy at exactly which point those two lines will cross but what I've seen says they will and that the crossing is likely not all that far away.

I don't expect it next month but I don't think you can rule out any particular timeframe. I upgraded to an AP2 car a couple of months ago and I expect to keep it for 5 years before I upgrade again. I just configured a model 3 and I put FSD on that one too. I'll be surprised if I don't get to use FSD on these cars before I get rid of them. And if I do get to use it then I will be well satisfied.
 
In the world of AI today the people who want to argue that further 'miracles' will not appear now have the burden of proof to bear. Of course it is very hard to say exactly where this all leads because these giant leaps occur in a hard to guess sequence and often in hard to guess directions. But the idea that more giant leaps are not coming is the least likely thing of all.
I agree with your conclusion except that Tesla took on the burden of proof when they marketed FSD as a viable vehicle option and took $ for that option. I know he/we will ultimately get to that miracle in the video but I'm no longer certain it will be during the ownership lifecycle of my vehicle (worse for those who leased)...
 
I agree with your conclusion except that Tesla took on the burden of proof when they marketed FSD as a viable vehicle option and took $ for that option. I know he/we will ultimately get to that miracle in the video but I'm no longer certain it will be during the ownership lifecycle of my vehicle (worse for those who leased)...
This to me, is the most honest and fair gripe I’ve seen with FSD. It describes the gamble we all made in choosing the FSD option, that we won’t get the usage out of it we hoped. If the powertrain weren’t so reliable and the car so advanced and versatile, I’d be feeling that sting for sure.
 
My comment is only intended to rebut the implication that AI, and by extension FSD which is fundamentally an AI problem, is much further away than proponents would have us believe. In the AI world today the future is coming in big steps which happen quite frequently. The step that makes FSD possible on AP2 hardware could come at almost any moment and perhaps it already has.

Clarke's first law is thoroughly relevant here and Brooks was right to highlight it at the start of his article.

I can't support any statement that FSD will be here in any particular short period of time because we - as in the broad technical community - don't yet know how to do it. There is as yet no existence proof of a machine that's been properly shown capable and it's not the kind of thing that you can work out on a blackboard. We won't have an upper bound for how hard it is until someone demos it. It's possible that working systems or nearly working system exist but aren't yet public. If they do exist then some people know it and I would expect Musk to be one of those people. So I listen to what he says very carefully while keeping in mind that he's quite aggressive with his timeframes and fairly liberal with his aspirational objectives. His time estimates seem to be a lower bound rather than a good prediction.

As for me - I claim FSD is coming to AP2. This claim is no more based on faith than a claim that S&P500 will eventually cross 3000. It's the overwhelmingly likely outcome of powerful trends that have been decades if not centuries in the making. I've been watching capabilities and requirements for this application very closely for a very long time. I can't say with accuracy at exactly which point those two lines will cross but what I've seen says they will and that the crossing is likely not all that far away.

I don't expect it next month but I don't think you can rule out any particular timeframe. I upgraded to an AP2 car a couple of months ago and I expect to keep it for 5 years before I upgrade again. I just configured a model 3 and I put FSD on that one too. I'll be surprised if I don't get to use FSD on these cars before I get rid of them. And if I do get to use it then I will be well satisfied.
Man, @JimmyD gets me amped everytime! Give this guy a twitter account!!
 
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This to me, is the most honest and fair gripe I’ve seen with FSD. It describes the gamble we all made in choosing the FSD option, that we won’t get the usage out of it we hoped. If the powertrain weren’t so reliable and the car so advanced and versatile, I’d be feeling that sting for sure.

This may be flippant of me, but for me the biggest reason to not to worry about is that percentage-wise the FSD was not that much of the car. In Tesla world, it is basically a rounding error between quarterly price and feature changes anyway.

But principle-wise it still hurts every time I see Tesla fail to be the company I once thought they were. I know many may not believe me, but I sincerely meant the glowing things I said of Tesla back in 2014.

It disappoints me to see Tesla (and Elon) turned out to be something else. FSD is a prime example of that something else. I was hoping and thinking here was someone I could root and cheerlead for.
 
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I do wonder whether FSD will have a "bitcoin" moment, where early investors with patience are the real winners once it takes off. For sure it will be a super-premium option on new cars until the regulators make it as mandatory as seat belts and air bags.