Opinion: Tesla should partner with another OEM for NACS or be forced into CCS someday.

CCS has been adopted, however shortsightedly, as the charging standard for North America. As all other manufacturers move forward with CCS ports in random, non-optimal locations over the years, Tesla may some day be forced to have CCS charging ports in their vehicles just as has happened in Europe.

We can hope and insist and be as certain as we'd like that this won't happen, but as legacy automakers and government all team up...there won't be much Tesla can do if a line is drawn in the sand and laws are passed.

I think it would be wise for Tesla to reach out to Ford for example(could be GM, or Dodge, whatever), and suggest a partnership where they standardize the charging port location on their new models to match Tesla's, and to implement Tesla's NACS plug. There would be a benefit to Tesla in terms of revenue generated from SC's, and a *massive* benefit to any OEM that can then claim full access to the largest, best, most reliable charging network in existence.

I don't see there being any HUGE downside to Tesla....no one manufacturer really has enough EV's on the road to move the needle all that much in terms of significantly clogging up SC locations. The upside for a Legacy OEM would be massive, and would most likely eliminate the possibility of the big three teaming up with government and forcing Tesla' hand with regards to CCS.

It's also easy enough to just toss a CCS adapter in with each car sold or make one available at low cost if desired. Tesla always has the option of excluding their busiest locations where extra traffic might cause congestion.

This would also support Tesla's objective of electrifying the world. I don't think this would significantly affect Tesla's sales, especially considering the limited production from Legacies for the foreseeable future. They could even team up with a smaller competitor like Mercedes or BMW.

Thoughts?

"Charging Tesla Model S" by jeffcooper86 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
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[Earl]

To whom are you referring?

We, clearly, can't know.

My recollection is that people on this forum were unhappy with "yet another connector standard". Europeans in particular were unhappy that it didn't support 3 phase AC charging, since they were already experienced with limited home charging rates on the Roadster due to load imbalance on single phase.
I was hoping that they'd just use a beefed up version of the versatile Mennekes connector so we could have single a worldwide standard.

I was involved then too and had many conversations with Tesla charging folks (we had a lot closer access to them back then).
A 'beefed up" version of Mennekes would still be yet-another incompatible standard. My understanding was that Tesla was pushing for J-1772 too support higher current and voltage on its power pins so that it could handle both AC and DC charging at high power. That is what the committee stifled when Tesla needed a connector for the Roadster and then, later, with the Model S. I'm quite sure Tesla would have been very happy with a 'beefed up' Mennekes if it could have handled AC at ~80 amps and DCFC.
Also remember that, back then, except for Tesla (JB Straubel) and TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power COmpany) the average joe wasn't thinking much about DC Fast Charging.
On can argue that the Tesla connector should have supported 3-phase AC. That was probably an Ameri-centric oversight.

 

[Boeingpilot]

CCS has been adopted, however shortsightedly, as the charging standard for North America. As all other manufacturers move forward with CCS ports in random, non-optimal locations over the years, Tesla may some day be forced to have CCS charging ports in their vehicles just as has happened in Europe.

We can hope and insist and be as certain as we'd like that this won't happen, but as legacy automakers and government all team up...there won't be much Tesla can do if a line is drawn in the sand and laws are passed.

I think it would be wise for Tesla to reach out to Ford for example(could be GM, or Dodge, whatever), and suggest a partnership where they standardize the charging port location on their new models to match Tesla's, and to implement Tesla's NACS plug. There would be a benefit to Tesla in terms of revenue generated from SC's, and a *massive* benefit to any OEM that can then claim full access to the largest, best, most reliable charging network in existence.

I don't see there being any HUGE downside to Tesla....no one manufacturer really has enough EV's on the road to move the needle all that much in terms of significantly clogging up SC locations. The upside for a Legacy OEM would be massive, and would most likely eliminate the possibility of the big three teaming up with government and forcing Tesla' hand with regards to CCS.

It's also easy enough to just toss a CCS adapter in with each car sold or make one available at low cost if desired. Tesla always has the option of excluding their busiest locations where extra traffic might cause congestion.

This would also support Tesla's objective of electrifying the world. I don't think this would significantly affect Tesla's sales, especially considering the limited production from Legacies for the foreseeable future. They could even team up with a smaller competitor like Mercedes or BMW.

Thoughts?


View attachment 915868
"Charging Tesla Model S" by jeffcooper86 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

Well, Aptera has adopted the NACS. Is that not another OEM, or are you just talking the big guys?

 

[Boeingpilot]

I don't see anyone forcing Tesla to change the current SC network connectors to CCS, but I can see that being tied to new ones built with federal money. Which is kind of strange if you consider the majority of cars out there have the Tesla connector, why not make them adapt to Tesla? Also- can Tesla get federal $$ to add CCS to some of the current pedestals like they have been doing? Or are the new magic dock ones brand new? Either way they're not being forced.

Sadly I agree with the 'that ship has sailed' comments about the Tesla plug being the default. VHS vs Beta all over again? Especially if the Tesla connector is good for speeds > 350kW and CCS is not (I don't know this as a fact but it was mentioned).

Besides the connector there's also the port placement on the car. Seems like that being on the driver's side rear is pretty intuitive after having that arrangement on ICE vehicles. This means longer connector cables and standardized parking etiquette. THAT is gonna be a PITA for a while.

If the argument is - more manufacturers are using CCS than the NACS that's flawed. There are certainly 3x as many EVs with NACS on the road NOW vs the CCS. Right?

I think this has already been addressed with the MagicDock. I suspect all V4 stations will be MagicDock standard, and that V3 (and perhaps V2) stations will be retrofitted over time. This permits Tesla to take their SuperCharger network from a cost center to a profit center. I do hope (and I believe they will) look very careful at areas where waiting for SCs are prevalent. I suspect those highly subscribed stations will be at the bottom of the list for change over. But in other areas, I see it going through. Example... NJ and PA Turnpikes both have SCs on the highway. In NJ, part of the deal was that that Tesla had to perform the support infrastructure for other providers (eg the feed costs). However, except for two stations I can think of, none of the most recent locations have implemented CCS charging from another vendor. In the case where there are, they are old EVGo 50kW stations, that are pretty useless. In PA, there are some scattered ChaDemo chargers on the Blink network, along with some J1772 L2 chargers. I've only once seen a SC station full up on both turnpikes (which I travel weekly). I suspect it would be to Tesla's advantage, as well as the state, to swap these to MagicDocks.

 

[PCTAZRichard]

I think this has already been addressed with the MagicDock. I suspect all V4 stations will be MagicDock standard, and that V3 (and perhaps V2) stations will be retrofitted over time. This permits Tesla to take their SuperCharger network from a cost center to a profit center. I do hope (and I believe they will) look very careful at areas where waiting for SCs are prevalent. I suspect those highly subscribed stations will be at the bottom of the list for change over. But in other areas, I see it going through. Example... NJ and PA Turnpikes both have SCs on the highway. In NJ, part of the deal was that that Tesla had to perform the support infrastructure for other providers (eg the feed costs). However, except for two stations I can think of, none of the most recent locations have implemented CCS charging from another vendor. In the case where there are, they are old EVGo 50kW stations, that are pretty useless. In PA, there are some scattered ChaDemo chargers on the Blink network, along with some J1772 L2 chargers. I've only once seen a SC station full up on both turnpikes (which I travel weekly). I suspect it would be to Tesla's advantage, as well as the state, to swap these to MagicDocks.

Is Tesla getting fed money for those retrofits? That would be quite the cash cow if they could get paid for each pedestal instal buy throwing a CCS magic dock on them!
How crappy are the other charging networks that Tesla can charge people $13/month AND + 10¢/kWH for charging vs what we pay?

 

[Ken Thomas]

Since this post is labeled as Opinion, I guess I will share my opinion.

As a retired electronics design engineer who worked on the early development of charging stations, I am disappointed with how the "standard" has developed. At the time of early development, I was irritated with the commingled assembly of afterthoughts into the CCS connector standard. I was also disappointed with the oversized yet poor capacity J1772 format. I always felt Tesla thought their connector out, and clearly they did, as indicated by actual performance. The Tesla connector does not need separate contacts for AC and DC. It is small, easy to handle and it handles everything. It was also there early on and I never understood why it was not adopted as the standard format from the start.

At any rate, as it stands now, the Tesla connector is the superior standard for North America. But I fear it's basically Betamax versus VHS, and Tesla is Sony.

Yes, VHS won out, but certainly not because it was the best. However, Betamax never went away. It was/is still used in all professional applications where real performance is required.

I do hope Tesla will not "conform" to CCS. I would hate to see Tesla cars with a big ugly charge port door like all other makes using CCS.

 

[timberlights]

Since this post is labeled as Opinion, I guess I will share my opinion.

As a retired electronics design engineer who worked on the early development of charging stations, I am disappointed with how the "standard" has developed. At the time of early development, I was irritated with the commingled assembly of afterthoughts into the CCS connector standard. I was also disappointed with the oversized yet poor capacity J1772 format. I always felt Tesla thought their connector out, and clearly they did, as indicated by actual performance. The Tesla connector does not need separate contacts for AC and DC. It is small, easy to handle and it handles everything. It was also there early on and I never understood why it was not adopted as the standard format from the start.


Yes, VHS won out, but certainly not because it was the best. However, Betamax never went away. It was/is still used in all professional applications where real performance is required.

I do hope Tesla will not "conform" to CCS. I would hate to see Tesla cars with a big ugly charge port door like all other makes using CCS.

Ken, I thought newer Teslas--including my 2022--have a charge port door big enough to handle CCS. meaning there is already some degree of conformance. Maybe I am mistaken in this . . .

 

[MP3Mike]

Is Tesla getting fed money for those retrofits?

No.

How crappy are the other charging networks that Tesla can charge people $13/month AND + 10¢/kWH for charging vs what we pay?

It is either or, not both. If you pay $13/month you get the same rate as a Tesla does.

 

[PCTAZRichard]

No.


It is either or, not both. If you pay $13/month you get the same rate as a Tesla does.

Thanks for the info!

That's still expensive IMO.

 

[Ken Thomas]

Ken, I thought newer Teslas--including my 2022--have a charge port door big enough to handle CCS. meaning there is already some degree of conformance. Maybe I am mistaken in this . . .

Indeed! I may be mistaken. I haven't actually measured it, but it looks a lot smaller than any of the other EVs charge port doors with CCS.

 

[RobH]

How about a car being equipped with both NACS and CCS? I would gladly add a CCS connector on the right side of the car. Having connectors on both sides of the car would solve many parking problems. Could probably be done for less than a premium car color...

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Supercharging is the best network and connector experience in the world, and you want to get rid of it?

Let those with inferior plugs get adapters if they want. I certainly don't want a CCS Tesla

 

[RobH]

There are both NACS and CCS charging facilities in the real world. I'm just suggesting a solution to using whatever is available. Adaptors work, this is just having a built-in adaptor located at a different location than the primary one. Other manufacturers could do the same, adding NACS as an alternative to their primary CCS.

 

[wwu123]

How about a car being equipped with both NACS and CCS? I would gladly add a CCS connector on the right side of the car. Having connectors on both sides of the car would solve many parking problems. Could probably be done for less than a premium car color...

But why stop at just two options, when you could have three?

 

[RobH]

At least most of us are past the era of carrying a half dozen 240 V plug adapters and 100 foot extension cords. What would be really nice would be induction charging embedded in the roadway. Charge as you go.

 

[BradStyve]

How about this as a solution. Elon buys a controlling interest in Ford and GM, takes over the board and switches both companies to the new Tesla standard and stops production of ICE vehicles at both companies. Both company's market caps are about $50 billion each. So for a bit more than he paid for the Blue Bird he could control both of them.

 

[derotam]

Unfortunately I think the other manufactures have a mindset that they will go down with the ship on CCS so I think Tesla will eventually flinch at some point... UNLESS Tesla stays way ahead of the CCS power handling capacity requirements. If CCS CAN'T do what Tesla needs it to do then they aren't going to change.

The only other thing that could influence switching TO NACS would be public opinion on physical handling of CCS vs NACS.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

CCS will be the "VHS" standard of charging - not the best technology but the one whiich became the standard based on market share

 

[galimpic]

Маybe it's still not too late for Tesla to loosen the language of the agreement it offers for those who want to use their patent and try to push their standard.

 

[derotam]

Маybe it's still not too late for Tesla to loosen the language of the agreement it offers for those who want to use their patent and try to push their standard.

I don't think it would matter...back to my going down with the ship comment for the major U.S. vehicle manufacturers.

 

[Rocky_H]

I never understood why it was not adopted as the standard format from the start.

Because Tesla only offered it up for consideration as an open standard a couple of months ago.