Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Guy V]

Absolutely on point. We don't know why and Tesla isn't talking, but their backtracking actions tell us they went too far.

We don't know why technologically they are limiting us at all. Perhaps is was really just a Tesla/Panasonic quality control issue early on. Perhaps they have a handle on it now, perhaps not. The only thing we know for sure is that there is a problem with some battery packs which they refuse to step up to and explain.

 

[omarsultan]

And therein lies the problem. How can hundreds of thousands of use cases throughout the world be anticipated by a handful of software engineers and their cohorts? I have no doubt that these individuals are among the best in the theoretical world, but there is a wide gulf between theory and application.

That is no different than any company that is developing a product. For example, CPUs can be used in limitless ways but Intel, AMD, et al manage to deal with that the vast majority of them most of the time. While he use cases might be infinite, they usually still boil down to a handful of variables.

You deal with the challenge in two ways:
1) You have test and validation cycles but into the process and either have a red team or actual customers do the testing--to many companies scrimp here because they are trying to save money or rushing to market or are simply lack imagination.
2) You leverage the communal knowledge of the industry you are in--batteries are not a new thing, Li-Ion batteries are not a new thing, EVs are not a new thing. It's fine to not feel bound by an existing body of knowledge or notions of what's possible/doable, but its also hubris to assume everyone else is dumber than you are. There is the concept fo standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

[Droschke]

We don't know why technologically they are limiting us at all. Perhaps is was really just a Tesla/Panasonic quality control issue early on. Perhaps they have a handle on it now, perhaps not. The only thing we know for sure is that there is a problem with some battery packs which they refuse to step up to and explain.

Absolutely. What crosses my mind everyday is this: who owns my car? It's not definitely only me as the "purchaser".

 

[lightningltd]

I note from the ‘failed HVBP’ thread that so far it looks around six cars have had this message come up with the suggestion they are all on 2019.40.2.3

Also suggests that they have done around 6-7 charges on the new FW before the message appears.

I’ve done my first 20% - 90% charge and wonder if it is now Russian roulette as to whether this message appears in 5-6 charge ?

Of course the flip side of the coin which would be interesting to know, is there any on here that have completed several charges on the latest firmware, who haven’t had the message and no other change in their range/charge profile?

I have done about 20 charges since the update and no positive change. Did see a small reduction at a couple of chargers, but that could have been the cold temperatures.
The one BIG concern I have, is that I have FREE unlimited supercharging, and after charging at the Santa Rosa supercharger (xmas weekend), I got a notice that my supercharging access had been blocked due to an unpaid balance. Thought nothing of it. Went on to Ukiah and plugged in. 2 minutes later it stopped and said supercharging was suspended due to an unpaid balance. The Santa Rosa supercharger had CHARGED me for supercharging!
Called Support at 8:00 at night on Sunday (12/29/2019) since I was trapped at the Ukiah supercharger and it said to call back during normal business hours. I called roadside service, and she told me that since the CAR was not broken, I would either have to wait until support opens, or pay the unpaid balance (enter a credit card). She could not even look at my account or unlock charging.
Since the damn browser STILL does not work for v1 MCU (including Credit Card entry and Release notes (and YES I rebooted twice)), I had to log into Tesla.com with the phone browser (once I found a strong enough signal). I logged in and it indeed DID charge me for the session (4kwh @ .31/kwh) $1.24. I entered a credit card to unlock the car so I could continue on home after charging. I left the card on the account so they could credit the charge back,
A few days later (1/1/2020) I charged on the way to work at the Eureka supercharger and went on to work. I logged into the account and it CHARGED me for that session as well! (15kwh @ .28/kwh) $4.20
I called support and FINALLY got to talk to a human. They said it should not have happened, but there was nothing they could do, and sent it to the 'resolution department' to make sure my free supercharging was still intact (and not stopped for some reason) and for a POSSIBLE refund. Still waiting to hear from them, nothing so far. I DID remove the card from the account so I won't get any more 'surprises'.
So...
If you have lifetime free supercharging, and have a credit card linked to the account, you may want to look at the History tab on your account to make sure you are not charged.
It just keeps getting worse and worse with Tesla!

 

[VT_EE]

Well they texted me and said they are indeed replacing the replacement pack that lasted two months. Do not have an ETA of finish date but they did send $1000 in Uber credits.

What is the deal with these Uber credits? $1000??? They could easily give you a rental for far less unless they expect the repair to take a month.

 

[Droschke]

I have done about 20 charges since the update and no positive change. Did see a small reduction at a couple of chargers, but that could have been the cold temperatures.
The one BIG concern I have, is that I have FREE unlimited supercharging, and after charging at the Santa Rosa supercharger (xmas weekend), I got a notice that my supercharging access had been blocked due to an unpaid balance. Thought nothing of it. Went on to Ukiah and plugged in. 2 minutes later it stopped and said supercharging was suspended due to an unpaid balance. The Santa Rosa supercharger had CHARGED me for supercharging!
Called Support at 8:00 at night on Sunday (12/29/2019) since I was trapped at the Ukiah supercharger and it said to call back during normal business hours. I called roadside service, and she told me that since the CAR was not broken, I would either have to wait until support opens, or pay the unpaid balance (enter a credit card). She could not even look at my account or unlock charging.
Since the damn browser STILL does not work for v1 MCU (including Credit Card entry and Release notes (and YES I rebooted twice)), I had to log into Tesla.com with the phone browser (once I found a strong enough signal). I logged in and it indeed DID charge me for the session (4kwh @ .31/kwh) $1.24. I entered a credit card to unlock the car so I could continue on home after charging. I left the card on the account so they could credit the charge back,
A few days later (1/1/2020) I charged on the way to work at the Eureka supercharger and went on to work. I logged into the account and it CHARGED me for that session as well! (15kwh @ .28/kwh) $4.20
I called support and FINALLY got to talk to a human. They said it should not have happened, but there was nothing they could do, and sent it to the 'resolution department' to make sure my free supercharging was still intact (and not stopped for some reason) and for a POSSIBLE refund. Still waiting to hear from them, nothing so far. I DID remove the card from the account so I won't get any more 'surprises'.
So...
If you have lifetime free supercharging, and have a credit card linked to the account, you may want to look at the History tab on your account to make sure you are not charged.
It just keeps getting worse and worse with Tesla!

Now that you have removed your CC from your account let us know if you might not be able to supercharge next time.

 

[lightningltd]

Now that you have removed your CC from your account let us know if you might not be able to supercharge next time.

That was why I removed it. No surprise charges and I would be informed.
I was TOTALLY shocked at the fact that there is NO support after hours anymore and Roadside Assistance would not (can not) help or even access the account details. They said they do not have access to unlock anything or even see car info beyond the basics.

 

[JRP3]

That's a very appealing concept. How do we verify/substantiate it? As far as I know, Tesla has not revealed it's BMS methodolgy/magic.

People who have hacked the cars, like wk057, have revealed what Tesla won't.

 

[Chaserr]

Tesla's hackers are more knowledgeable and trustworthy than Tesla itself.

 

[MP3Mike]

What is the deal with these Uber credits? $1000??? They could easily give you a rental for far less unless they expect the repair to take a month.

We don't know how much Tesla actually pays for those credits, and they expire after a period of time, so they might not all get used.

 

[lightningltd]

We don't know how much Tesla actually pays for those credits, and they expire after a period of time, so they might not all get used.

??? what credits?

 

[gmo43]

Besides Jason Huges, donee know of others that can help us since Jason is too scared and won't talk anymore.

Let's crowed fund these other hackers and have them find out what Tesla won't tell us.

 

[JRP3]

Anyone in the New Hampshire area can swing by the Electrified Garage, two former Tesla employees work there, they might know what's going on
https://electrifiedgarage.com/

 

[David99]

All I could find out from Toni (who can root any Tesla and a lot more) is that the capping can't be undone if you downgrade and install an older firmware version.
Jason knows what is going on but is, for good reasons, fearing Tesla's attorneys coming after him for the rest of his life. I believe that means the issue is serious.

I don't think it really makes much of a difference what exactly the underlying issue is. From a legal point it's not that relevant. Tesla reached into our property and significantly downgraded our cars. We want back what we had before the artificial clipping. Tesla will not just undo these restrictions because it's probably too dangerous. So one way or another, they have to fix this and give us back our cars as they were.

 

[Guy V]

People who have hacked the cars, like wk057, have revealed what Tesla won't.

I have been paying attention and I haven't seen anyone describe the BMS secret sauce in any such detail.

 

[omarsultan]

I would imagine exposing the inner workings of the BMS would unleash a horde of IP attorneys.

 

[DJRas]

finally got my cable/adapter/scanmytesla and hooked it up. I posted the results of my 201k mile 85kw pack here: 7 years later what is your 100% on your 85kWh battery?

but since I posted in this thread that I was always curious if I was capped or not I'll post the results here too:

2013 (feb build) P85, B Pack.
Version: 2019.16.2 (I've been hitting NO to updates for a while...)
201k miles.

Original battery.

Charged to 100% (well, according to scanmytesla it stopped at 97.5%, I guess it can't go to 100%?)

Odometer: 201039 miles
Nominal full pack: 68.7 kWh <-- based on original of 81.5 kWh, seems I am at ~16% battery degradation
Nominal remaining: 67.1 kWh
Usable full pack: 64.7 kWh
Usable remaining: 63.1 kWh
SOC: 97.5% <-- I had slider at 100% and it said Charging Complete...not sure why it did not go to 100%?
SOC Min: 97.6%
SOC UI: 97.6%
Rated range: 226 mi
Typical range: 262 mi
Full rated range: 232 mi
Full typical range: 269 mi
Cell min: 4.141 Vc <-- does not look like I am capped, but I'm on old firmware and refuse to update...
Cell avg: 4.144 Vc
Cell max: 4.146 Vc
Cell diff: 0.004 Vcd
Cell imbalance: 4.27 mV

so based on the cell voltages it looks like I'm not capped. And at about 16% actual battery degradation, doesn't look like I'm in the ballpark for any kind of warranty replacement.

I know my 100% (97.5%?) charge only shows 226, and in the real world I can't get anywhere close to the 278Wh/mi rate required to hit that rated range. My average over 201k miles is around ~375Wh/mi, which corresponds exactly to why I can only get about ~167 real world miles on a 100% -> 4% charge. I'll guess just keep hitting that DENY UPDATE button...

With a 4.146 vmax at 97.5% then you ARE capped. Just not as severely as most of us.

 

[supratachophobia]

Besides Jason Huges, donee know of others that can help us since Jason is too scared and won't talk anymore.

Let's crowed fund these other hackers and have them find out what Tesla won't tell us.

Why? The BMS data available already confirms the capping of a "full" charge at something below 4.2v. What else do we need to know from the firmware/software, unless there is a text file that says, "This_is_what_we_did_to_your_battery.txt".

 

[First EV]

All I could find out from Toni (who can root any Tesla and a lot more) is that the capping can't be undone if you downgrade and install an older firmware version.
Jason knows what is going on but is, for good reasons, fearing Tesla's attorneys coming after him for the rest of his life. I believe that means the issue is serious.

I don't think it really makes much of a difference what exactly the underlying issue is. From a legal point it's not that relevant. Tesla reached into our property and significantly downgraded our cars. We want back what we had before the artificial clipping. Tesla will not just undo these restrictions because it's probably too dangerous. So one way or another, they have to fix this and give us back our cars as they were.

A bit of a layman explanation why rooting to an older version doesn't uncap the battery would be helpful. Can you provide this?

 

[gmo43]

All I could find out from Toni (who can root any Tesla and a lot more) is that the capping can't be undone if you downgrade and install an older firmware version.
Jason knows what is going on but is, for good reasons, fearing Tesla's attorneys coming after him for the rest of his life. I believe that means the issue is serious.

I don't think it really makes much of a difference what exactly the underlying issue is. From a legal point it's not that relevant. Tesla reached into our property and significantly downgraded our cars. We want back what we had before the artificial clipping. Tesla will not just undo these restrictions because it's probably too dangerous. So one way or another, they have to fix this and give us back our cars as they were.

Is Toni on TMC? If yes I'm sure he would help us out and benefit from this thread. Maybe he/she be the one to help us find the cause of chargegate and batterygate. With the help of few others. Maybe even be compensated for his work.