Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Az_Rael]

I always thought number on the car represented the kWh.

So then I chewed the SC for nothing...LOL.

Pretty sure that is why they now just call them Long Range and Standard Range.

 

[tga]

Pretty sure that is why they now just call them Long Range and Standard Range.

It also avoids confusing non-technical people - "What's a kWh?" Names and rated miles are easier for the general public to comprehend.

 

[Droschke]

Pretty sure that is why they now just call them Long Range and Standard Range.

That has been my thinking since the time of renaming. The numbering was not confusing rather only confusing once you knew the trick behind them.

 

[bhzmark]

Tesla pretty much only covers the actual failure of the battery under the unlimited mileage warranty. (I.e. the inability to charge and/or drive the car.)

In addition, certain messages indicating battery errors (e.g., "Battery needs service Avoid hard acceleration") even while the car is still driveable have been treated by replacing the pack. That was my case. I was on road trip when I got that msg and service said it was ok to drive (a few hundred miles) and bring it to service when I got back. But not to floor it. When I got back they replaced the battery and it performs better than the one it replaced.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

In other interesting news, apparently Tesla changed the battery warranty on new S/X - there is a 150K mile cap, but now with a 70% retention guarantee...

70% compared to what? The new warranty doesn't say. When you have your Model S degradation checked, Tesla compares it to fleet average. Is it 30% below new, or 30% below fleet average? The difference is huge!

 

[omarsultan]

70% compared to what? The new warranty doesn't say. When you have your Model S degradation checked, Tesla compares it to fleet average. Is it 30% below new, or 30% below fleet average? The difference is huge!

I am going to go out on a limb and say based on whatever the official EPA/rated range is, since that's really the only empirical measure new buyers have anymore.

 

[MP3Mike]

I am going to go out on a limb and say abasing whatever the official EPA/rated range is, since that's really the only empirical measure new buyers have anymore.

And that is what Model 3 owners have recently been told when asking about the 70% guarantee.

 

[jaitch]

Apparently, according to a post on Tesla Owners Group UK, Tesla also added this at the end of the new new car warranty:-

"Your vehicle updates its software wirelessly, constantly providing new features and improvements for your vehicle, including updates to protect and improve Battery longevity. Any noticeable changes to the performance of the Battery due to these software updates are NOT covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty."

So they have self-licenced themelves to do whatever. I will accept a dislike as a dislike of Tesla's action!

edit: to add link https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf

See page 6.

James

 

[Droschke]

70% compared to what? The new warranty doesn't say. When you have your Model S degradation checked, Tesla compares it to fleet average. Is it 30% below new, or 30% below fleet average? The difference is huge!

One owner reported in this thread being told by Tesla this:

"A battery with my age/mileage should have a capacity of 231 miles (Fleet-wide average).
IF my battery is <90% of that window they can replace my battery under warranty."

All this is as clear as mud.

 

[Guy V]

They cannot retroactively change the warranty conditions for already sold cars, but that new limit probably now applies for used cars sold by Tesla.

They can't remove any original warranty coverage but they may, as many manufacturers faced with product defects liability have done, is add additional protections.

Recall that Musk announced enhanced drivetrain and battery coverage early on.

 

[First EV]

You know the "ill" ones can remain ill till the warranty is over and they then are really screwed, don't you think?

I thought it was painfully obvious that was the goal. An ill battery reduces the ownership experience with reduced range and slower charging and reduced regen. A replacement battery before the warranty expires will likely be a huge sticking point for future used Model S buyers.

 

[Chaserr]

I always thought the number on the car represented the kWh.

So then I chewed the SC out for nothing...LOL.

you aren't wrong. Look at your Monroney sticker - they literally call it "85 kWh" it's not just a label on the back. In fact at first there were no labels in back those came in early summer '13.

 

[First EV]

Pretty sure that is why they now just call them Long Range and Standard Range.

Why not a 'Reduced Range' version?

 

[Guy V]

They can do whatever they want with used cars they buy back, such as stripping unlimited free supercharging or altering the warranty.
However, the problem with our unlimited mileage warranty is that there does not seem to be a clear definition of when the pack is considered faulty due to capacity loss.

No problems copying and pasting text from the PDF file for me, they are being pretty clear on the conditions regarding what is considered degradation now:

*For warranty claims specific to Battery capacity, the replacement Battery will be in a condition appropriate to the age and mileage of the vehicle sufficient to achieve or exceed the minimum Battery capacity for the remainder of the warranty period of the original Battery. Note that the vehicle’s range estimates are an imperfect measure of Battery capacity because they are affected by additional factors separate from Battery capacity. The measurement method used to determine Battery capacity, and the decision of whether to repair, replace, or provide reconditioned or re-manufactured parts, and the condition of any such replaced, reconditioned or re-manufactured parts, are at the sole discretion of Tesla

They have at least solidly established what useful battery life a purchaser can now expect to rely upon: 70% after 8 years.

I think making this clear to purchasers is very good thing.

What it does let them do though, if for example you have an early S85 of EPA 265 miles, is to let them replace your battery that has fallen below 185 miles range before 8 years or 150,000 miles, with any pack that exceeds 185 miles, you know, like 186 miles.

 

[Chaserr]

They can do whatever they want with used cars they buy back, such as stripping unlimited free supercharging or altering the warranty.

They can remove parts of the car like wheels or supercharging but there are federal laws that stop them from doing "whatever they want" like removing the original warranty or airbags, or rolling back miles and so on. They can only make changes within the bounds of what is legal and I don't think warranty law allows the warranty to be removed prematurely except for a very limited set of circumstances (Tesla could declare all of their used cars as "salvage titled" for example and I believe that would satisfy Magnuson Moss if they choose to nullify the existing warranty.

 

[Chaserr]

A replacement battery before the warranty expires will likely be a huge sticking point for future used Model S buyers.

This is a great point. I know I'm not selling mine until after Tesla replaces the battery. Secondhand buyers will be looking out for batterygate risk cars and those that have been repaired already will command a premium; those that have been downgraded will be devalued appropriately.

There will probably be a moment of time where buying up used 85s at rock bottom once this topic is all over the 5 O'clock news but before Tesla has replaced all of the batteries with the new 85 that could be very lucrative. I may buy up a few myself just to flip for profit post-Recall.

 

[tga]

but there are federal laws that stop them from doing "whatever they want" like removing the original warranty or airbags, or rolling back miles and so on.

The Federal Odometer Act makes it illegal for anyone (Tesla or otherwise) to roll back odometers. Federal safety regulations prevent anyone from selling a car (used or new) post-model year 1997 (?) without airbags or post model year 1966-ish without seatbelts, for that matter.

IANAL, but with a quick glance, I couldn't find anything in Magnuson–Moss that would preclude a manufacture from buying back a car and re-selling it with a different warranty (or "as-is", without a warranty). My CPO was sold without it's original (bumper-to-bumper) warranty, but it was replaced with a better (longer term) warranty.

Tesla could declare all of their used cars as "salvage titled" for example

Titles are controlled by the issuing state. Tesla can't unilaterally declare a car to be salvage.

 

[Leeboy22001]

Interesting that Tesla have decided to exclude the original 60kWh battery from the 70% degredation in the new warranty!? It only has the 8 years OR 150,000 mile battery/drivetrain warranty

 

[MP3Mike]

Interesting that Tesla have decided to exclude the original 60kWh battery from the 70% degredation in the new warranty!? It only has the 8 years OR 150,000 mile battery/drivetrain warranty

The original 60kWh cars were sold prior to this change, so they would keep the warranty that was in effect on the date they were sold.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

So do you think it is degradation?
This equates to a loss of 9% or 22miles. It dropped 10-miles overnight after the download.

That’s a good question. On one hand, the voltage strongly, very strongly, suggests you haven’t been capped. On the other hand you definitely have less capacity. And it’s a significant drop. I can’t think of a logical explanation. It makes one wonder if they have developed a new method of 'protecting' the battery. I regret to say, I have no helpful suggestions.