I thought they were only capped, ie a portion of the battery was made unavailable.
Voltage-wise unavailable. That's why the owners started to charge to 100% since it was not really 100%.
What's happening to us, Tesla has practiced it before.
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I thought they were only capped, ie a portion of the battery was made unavailable.
whether they are capped (all cells remain at 4.2V but some are made unavailable) or voltage limited (all cells are instructed to take less charge)
What sucks for me more in the short term is that is this update is installed while I'm in Arizona, I'll have to get towed at least part way as AP1 Tesla's won't charge in some older superchargers with v9. A couple in a 2015 S had to get towed from Indio two days ago when we were there because of this bug.
I believe you are right...how many people actually do a rundown of the battery like I do and realize that they will not get the indicated rated range?I believe we have all be duped by this chart that our batteries have not been degrading as much as they ACTUALLY have.
I believe we have all be duped by this chart that our batteries have not been degrading as much as they ACTUALLY have.
I believe you are right...how many people actually do a rundown of the battery like I do and realize that they will not get the indicated rated range?
The chart should be based on real KWH battery available ...for example mine is now at 62kwh (on X75D) ...I think it was at best 67kwh when new (which seemed ok to me).
I thought Vmax was an arbitrary limit imposed by the BMS. When the cell reaches the predetermined level, BMS indicates 100% full. I don’t think you have to swap the cell for a different one. In theory any cell can take more than 4.2V, it just gets damaged if it is overfull, or empty.
Thanks for the heads up as I did not know about it. However, I've supercharged multiple times at a 5 years old supercharger with v9 with no issue at all, but not in the last 6 months. Is this a bug with the newer v9 software updates? Any more info on this?
Then it would be nice for a non-impacted owner to actually show us the battery capacity they still have (not the rated miles); or show us that they actually were able to get the rated miles on a long trip driving at rated consumption.But have our batteries been really degrading this much? I thought we all agree that this is a software mandated capacity cap for the reason(s) we do not understand 100%. After all, the non-impacted owners' degradation are pretty much aligned with the chart. No?
I see your points, but not all cars of certain years/models are impacted, as the owners have reported here. There seems to be no common denominator observed throughout this thread. That's the mystery of it.
Our early 2013 Tesla S85 has been limited to 88kW maximum supercharging rate from the beginning as we have the Original A battery spec.
This rate has been sufficient for 80000 km of supercharged driving.
I don’t understand the drama. We love our Tesla and it is clearly superior to the other options available. What other car charges as fast as our old 2013? Very few if any, and none in Canada.
Vmax in any context is just the specified maximum voltage a given component is supposed to be capable of taking; anything beyond that risks damaging the component and/or voiding the warranty. In the context of a battery, it is the maximum cell voltage allowed within specification — at which point that cell is 100% charged; in the context of the BMS, it's a software-imposed limitation(/calculation) — above which the BMS will refuse to charge (and at which the BMS declares 100% charge). By default, the BMS will limit the charge voltage to match the cell's specification; under certain circumstances (such as corked battery packs for SKUing purposes and/or "out of an abundance of caution"), the BMS will restrict the voltage to a lower value — but that doesn't change the inherent specification of the cell, it just leaves that portion of the cell unused.I thought Vmax was an arbitrary limit imposed by the BMS. When the cell reaches the predetermined level, BMS indicates 100% full. I don’t think you have to swap the cell for a different one. In theory any cell can take more than 4.2V, it just gets damaged if it is overfull, or empty.
BUT a small percentage of cars had their actual range clipped by 10-30 miles! That has affected people really upset. I can’t blame them. I have an affected friend too. I think these affected owners deserve some financial compensation
Understand?
If our Tesla has reduced that amount of range I’d be Ok with it. It’s still more range than needed considering the massive supercharger roll out here in Ontario Canada.
Tesla has outstanding experience with managing battery packs.
I drive a Smart ED with only 100km range in perfect conditions. I have somehow been able to drive 50000 km in 6 years. How did I get by with such low range. It’s a mystery. Guess I charged up every night.
1. I have to charge more frequently. Each journey takes 50% more energy than before. (Bad for the battery.)
2. I have to charge to a higher SoC (90%+) to regain some of the lost distance. (Bad)
3. Once charged the battery is likely to remain at a higher SoC for longer periods. (Bad)
4. There is a ratio between the charging power and the battery capacity. Called C Rate. Li Ion batteries can survive without damage up to a C Rate of 2
Charging a 70kWh battery on 120 kW Supercharger equals C Rate of 1.7 (Good)
Charging a 58kWh battery on 120 kW Supercharger equals C Rate of 2.08 (Bad)
I have to say that’s not my understanding of it. I believe capping involves restricting access to a certain part of the battery. Achieved through software. As was seen when Tesla remotely made the capped portion available during hurricane Florence. Then reversed that again, remotely, afterwards.Voltage-wise unavailable. That's why the owners started to charge to 100% since it was not really 100%.
What's happening to us, Tesla has practiced it before.
OK thank you for explaining. I understand all of that. Does that mean you believe that capping (as in 60 kWh batteries were actually capped 75s) was achieved by changing the cell voltage rather than restricting access to a certain number of cells?Vmax in any context is just the specified maximum voltage a given component is supposed to be capable of taking; anything beyond that risks damaging the component and/or voiding the warranty. In the context of a battery, it is the maximum cell voltage allowed within specification — at which point that cell is 100% charged; in the context of the BMS, it's a software-imposed limitation(/calculation) — above which the BMS will refuse to charge (and at which the BMS declares 100% charge). By default, the BMS will limit the charge voltage to match the cell's specification; under certain circumstances (such as corked battery packs for SKUing purposes and/or "out of an abundance of caution"), the BMS will restrict the voltage to a lower value — but that doesn't change the inherent specification of the cell, it just leaves that portion of the cell unused.
TL;DR: 4.07 V is still an 87% charge at the cell level, but 100% according to the BMS (and would be 115% at 4.2 V if one could manually charge beyond the BMS's self-imposed limit).
Thanks. I’m always willing, and grateful, to learn new stuff. And batterygate has caused me to research stuff I hadn’t even heard of before, far less understood. I try hard not to say the battery is smaller, only that the capacity has reduced, by which of course I mean usable capacity. And I am reassured to learn that they are only restricting the most vulnerable top level of the cell. Although my research found most experts say that Li Ion cells can withstand and are happy with anything up to and including 4.2V, which is why it is the industry standard. But I guess it’s not a linear thing and that a point (beyond which the potential damage outweighs the benefit of holding a charge) has to be picked. If I use my energy meter to calculate the usable capacity of my battery, then it shows my usable capacity has dropped from 68.5kWh to 58.5kWh. And when my battery icon shows 85%, it is showing 85% of 58kWh, and my % usage reflects a % of 58kWh. Using the same 320 Wh/mi naturally shows a higher % used per mile. In my case 15% for 20 miles whereas it used to be 10% for 20 miles. So I guess the 90%/100% comparison works well if the restriction is 10%. In my battery’s case I think it’s closer to 15%, but I take the point. So I guess the real question is what the damage, or potential damage difference actually is between 4.1V and 4.2V.You are mistaken because the battery is not smaller after the software update. The batter y is the exact same size as it was before.
If you used to charge to 90% before and now charge to 100% then that's the exact same thing. The 100% point is artificially set to 90% true capacity, so a 100% charge is now only a 90% charge.
The C-rate when charging has not changed either. As mentioned the battery has the same capacity as before.
You also don't need more battery percentage than before. Again, Tesla just artificially decreased the numbers, the way the battery is charged and used is the exact same as before.
Tesla is locking out the upper charge level of the battery which is known to be the most stressful and damaging one for the battery. They prevent you from subjecting your battery to a state that is bad for it.