The Automobile 2.0: Chevrolet Bolt EV vs Nissan LEAF vs Tesla Model 3 Long Range

[RobStark]

That said, if Audi released a BEV version of the A4 that looks just like a normal A4 and had at least 250 miles of range and AWD, with traffic jam assist, it would get my attention.

1)The Audi A4 BEV would not have access to the supercharger network. That is a deal breaker for me.

2) If you buy a theoretical Audi BEV you enable VW AG to sell more ICE A8,Q7,911 Turbos,and Cayenne while meeting their CAFE and CARB obligations.

When you buy a Tesla you enable Tesla Inc to build more Gigafactories to transition the world to sustainable consumption of energy.

 

[bro1999]

1)

When you buy a Tesla you enable Tesla Inc to build more Gigafactories to transition the world to sustainable consumption of energy.

AND also allow VW (or any manufacturer needing ZEV credits) to make more gas guzzlers, as Tesla sells the ZEV credits it earns. Let's not make Tesla into some saint now.

 

[run-the-joules]

1)The Audi A4 BEV would not have access to the supercharger network. That is a deal breaker for me.

2) If you buy a theoretical Audi BEV you enable VW AG to sell more ICE A8,Q7,911 Turbos,and Cayenne while meeting their CAFE and CARB obligations.

When you buy a Tesla you enable Tesla Inc to build more Gigafactories to transition the world to sustainable consumption of energy.

1. Doesn’t matter to me, I wouldn’t need the range often and they’ll build a network eventually.

2. You’re preaching to the wrong person. I’m not in this for environmental reasons.

 

[RobStark]

1. Doesn’t matter to me, I wouldn’t need the range often and they’ll build a network eventually.

2. You’re preaching to the wrong person. I’m not in this for environmental reasons.

1) Whatever CCS network gets built will not match the Supercharger network in the next ten years and therefore resale value for CCS cars will be less than Teslas.

2) A) I preach to everyone. B) It also allows Tesla to build more Gigafactories to get the US and other industrialized countries to Energy Independence. Freeing massive resources from being transferred form the US/Industrialized countries to OPEC/Russia.

 

[RobStark]

AND also allow VW (or any manufacturer needing ZEV credits) to make more gas guzzlers, as Tesla sells the ZEV credits it earns. Let's not make Tesla into some saint now.

Other manufacutres need ZEV credits so that California and Oregon alllow them to sell more gas guzzlers .

Still need to meet federal CAFE requirements. Without their quota fillers they have to sell less of the massive gas guzzlers.

One of the reasons there are waiting list for Cadillac Escalades. It is not because GM is production constrained for full sized trucks.

In the near future I also think you will see Tesla burn their ZEV credits.

 

[run-the-joules]

1) Whatever CCS network gets built will not match the Supercharger network in the next ten years and therefore resale value for CCS cars will be less than Teslas.

2) A) I preach to everyone. B) It also allows Tesla to build more Gigafactories to get the US and other industrialized countries to Energy Independence. Freeing massive resources from being transferred form the US/Industrialized countries to OPEC/Russia.

1. Resale value doesn’t matter to me.

2. Still doesn’t influence my decision.

 

[bro1999]

Other manufacutres need ZEV credits so that California and Oregon alllow them to sell more gas guzzlers .

Still need to meet federal CAFE requirements. Without their quota fillers they have to sell less of the massive gas guzzlers.

One of the reasons there are waiting list for Cadillac Escalades. It is not because GM is production constrained for full sized trucks.

In the near future I also think you will see Tesla burn their ZEV credits.

Unless Tesla likes burning money (....wait a second) they will continue to sell their credits. If the GOP is successful in killing the fed credit, combined with the max credits per vehicle dropping from 9 to 4 on 1 Jan 2018, ZEV credits will only GO UP in value as they will be harder to accumulate. Especially since OEMs can't just choose to pay the $5k per credit short fine. They would still need to acquire the necessary credits or else they would no longer be able to sell cars in CA.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

AND also allow VW (or any manufacturer needing ZEV credits) to make more gas guzzlers, as Tesla sells the ZEV credits it earns. Let's not make Tesla into some saint now.

By that logic, purchasing an e-Golf or a Bolt allows ICE manufacturers to sell more gas guzzlers...

 

[bro1999]

By that logic, purchasing an e-Golf or a Bolt allows ICE manufacturers to sell more gas guzzlers...

Exactly proving my point. Buy a Tesla or traditional manufacturer EV, you are enabling the sale of more gas guzzlers. Doesn't matter the company you buy from.

If Tesla stopped selling its credits, that would no longer be the case. But they ain't stopping sales anytime soon.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Exactly proving my point. Buy a Tesla or traditional manufacturer EV, you are enabling the sale of more gas guzzlers. Doesn't matter the company you buy from.

If Tesla stopped selling its credits, that would no longer be the case. But they ain't stopping sales anytime soon.

Except that you know the sale of the ZEV credits from Tesla are invested in EVs...

 

[EvilNuff]

1) Whatever CCS network gets built will not match the Supercharger network in the next ten years and therefore resale value for CCS cars will be less than Teslas.
...

I disagree about the charging network. Honestly all it would take to get a perfectly serviceable network up and running is a partnership deal between a large gas station chain and some car manufacturers and some money thrown around. I would bet money that there will be a serviceable charging network suitable for long distance travel in existence *well* before any cars are fully self driving (without a driver accepting legal responsibility).

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I disagree about the charging network. Honestly all it would take to get a perfectly serviceable network up and running is a partnership deal between a large gas station chain and some car manufacturers and some money thrown around. I would bet money that there will be a serviceable charging network suitable for long distance travel in existence *well* before any cars are fully self driving (without a driver accepting legal responsibility).

I'll be happy when a comparable CCS network exists, but nobody seems interested in building one. The company that everyone expects to get the ball rolling is being legally coerced into doing so, and appears to be dragging their feet.

The CCS network needs redundancy. Installing 1 to 2 plugs in random locations isn't a practical way of going about building out a charging network. It's going to take a little bit more of a concerted effort than partnering with a gas station chain, IMHO.

 

[DarthPierce]

1. Resale value doesn’t matter to me.

2. Still doesn’t influence my decision.

What?

If you're not buying an EV for environmental reasons, nor geopolitical energy independence, nor for total cost of ownership, why are you (thinking about) buying one?

 

[run-the-joules]

What?

If you're not buying an EV for environmental reasons, nor geopolitical energy independence, nor for total cost of ownership, why are you (thinking about) buying one?

In order of importance, why I'm trying to buy a Model 3 specifically:

1. Autopilot (as it is right now, not any “maybe some day” stuff)
2. Performance (i won’t buy something slower than my current car, as a general rule. If it’s not an upgrade, why buy? Also specifically: no front wheel drive, ever again. This rules out most other EVs).
3. HOV lane access.
4. Not having to stop for fuel at inconvenient times (i get irrationally angry when i have to stop for fuel on the way to/from work. Charging at home means this is gone forever).
5. Lower maint (in theory)
6. Styling (no weirdo derp pods like the Bolt, Leaf, etc. It has to look like a normal car, and a nice one at that)
7. OTA updates/continuous improvement
8. Remote climate control
9. Camping mode
10. Supercharger network

The Model S theoretically hits all those marks as well but in practice after 4 test drives (one of which was 3 days), I had too many issues with it (design-wise, not build quality or anything) and couldn't justify the enormous price jump over the Model 3, even though I can technically afford it.

 

[Snerruc]

There are Wawas with Superchargers now. It will happen with CCS too. Gas stations will find quickly that you have the electric driver caprtve for a longer time and will be able to sell them more stuff.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

What?

If you're not buying an EV for environmental reasons, nor geopolitical energy independence, nor for total cost of ownership, why are you (thinking about) buying one?

new and fancy and theoretically superior in reliability and efficiency.
Why do people buy new smartphones all the time when the old ones can handle everything thrown at them without any problems?

 

[Eclectic]

At 85,000$ the Porsche is more comparable to an S than a 3. In the price range of the 3 there is no real EV-competitor at present. Hopefully there will be an EV BMW 3 series, Audi A4 series and Merc in 4-5 years. It'll mean the EV market has come of age.

I was referring to the replacement for my P85D.

 

[voip-ninja]

What?

If you're not buying an EV for environmental reasons, nor geopolitical energy independence, nor for total cost of ownership, why are you (thinking about) buying one?

The problem is you can't comprehend that some people want a Tesla because of the technology... because of the gadget factor, because electric vehicles are cool and Tesla are the coolest of the cool.

You are on an environmental crusade and you don't even acknowledge that Tesla does not build a single affordable electric vehicle and has no plans to.

Tesla builds cars for the very well off. So stop acting like they are saving the planet, they aren't.

Where they have succeeded is in demonstrating to the world market that EVs CAN be cool and CAN be sexy while simultaneously being zero emission vehicles (which is also not entirely true depending on where in the world you live and where electricity is sourced).

That is a great accomplishment but as is often the case you and others here have to push it too far into claiming that with their .1% of global vehicle sales Tesla is going to save the planet.

 

[Runt8]

You are on an environmental crusade and you don't even acknowledge that Tesla does not build a single affordable electric vehicle and has no plans to.

$35,000 is almost exactly the cost of the average new car these days, so by definition it’s affordable to half the buyers of new cars.

 

[DarthPierce]

The problem is you can't comprehend that some people want a Tesla because of the technology... because of the gadget factor, because electric vehicles are cool and Tesla are the coolest of the cool.

You are on an environmental crusade and you don't even acknowledge that Tesla does not build a single affordable electric vehicle and has no plans to.

Tesla builds cars for the very well off. So stop acting like they are saving the planet, they aren't.

Where they have succeeded is in demonstrating to the world market that EVs CAN be cool and CAN be sexy while simultaneously being zero emission vehicles (which is also not entirely true depending on where in the world you live and where electricity is sourced).

That is a great accomplishment but as is often the case you and others here have to push it too far into claiming that with their .1% of global vehicle sales Tesla is going to save the planet.

Wow - there are a lot of accusations directly about me in there... Are you sure you even meant to respond to me? All I asked is why the interest in an EV when not considering any of those criteria.

I agree that Teslas are cool and have fun gadget factor and it's ok to want one for that... I was just surprised that someone who didn't consider any of the other things as factors at all would want one...

I'm coming from a ~4.5 second 0-60 car that gets ~20mpg, I wouldn't say I'm exactly a crusader. Personally I would order my interests as:

Autopilot
Active Safety
Low TCO
Fun of massive torque
Passive safety
No more gas
Ultra-low emissions
Other performance aspects
Believing in Tesla's mission to accelerate sustainable transport

I guess having total cost of ownership and low emissions on the list at all makes me an "Environmental crusader" who "claims that 0.1% of global sales is saving the planet".....

Not sure what I ever did to you, but wow.