This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[jabloomf1230]

I believe FSD came out in 2016 and it's still stuck at Level 2 self driving. Even Mercedes is now at Level 3 (limited up to 40mph, on freeways only). How many years will it take for folks to realize Tesla will never get there, especially with Tesla-Vision?

Using the SAE levels for behavior that isn't everywhere all the time within a national jurisdiction is disingenuous and misleading.

 

[Krugerrand]

The problem is, that once it installs, it breaks TACC so that it now stops at green lights. Also, the update pesters you to install it.

I’m sure that will be addressed with either a bug fix or in a month when the trial runs it course.

Try and make the best of the gift horse for a few weeks. I assure you, you won’t be forced to buy it and your vehicle will be returned to its previous inferior state.

 

[DB288]

reply to the original post

‘23 MY

never used it; used regular autopilot a lot on local roads and highways; got the free month

i think it’s pretty remarkable…it’s a little cautious

i would not pay 12k for it…but i would pay something like 4k…

people seem to be pretty critical…

i live in a pretty crowded suburb in a major metro area…

i think it works…it feels very safe…

 

[CrazyRabbit]

FSD is only worth 3K in my book. Prior to trial, I thought maybe 6K.
I might rent it for a long trip in the future.
All this has shown me is that my camera in the cabin is busted, fsd will not work at night.

 

[LadyOnikara]

I like the opportunity to try it for free. The way it drives makes my mom nervous when it's activated so she might not pay for it after the trial. I like the more detailed visualizations though. I was surprised to see that the autosteer works on our non-lined dirt road. There is rough asphalt on the edges so I wouldn't try it there. Looking forward to seeing how our female dog reacts when the car comes to myself or mom when we call it and there is no one in the driver's seat. The look on her face doing the Light Show is funny!

 

[Kevy Baby]

The problem is, that once it installs, it breaks TACC so that it now stops at green lights.

TACC is not meant for use on surface streets, nor anywhere where you would encounter traffic control lights (not even a metered on ramp).

 

[Krugerrand]

Sure thing! Want to provide your address so that I can ship my keyboard to you so you can type it up for me too? /sarcasm

The Mountain
Middle of Nowhere
Snowcap, ‘Til June
42069

Or, just PM next time and I’ll whip up an appropriate descriptive and truthful headline for ya.

 

[Krugerrand]

He has many valid points and took the time to do a thoughtful write up. Kudos to him.

I didn’t say otherwise. If only he’d been as thoughtful with the thread title. He doesn’t get excused for that regardless of what came after.

 

[RSpanner]

Nobody is being forced. Dramatic much?

People without it are being shown how it works and given an opportunity to experience it. That is all. Use it. Don’t use it. Completely up to each individual.

Just wondering..do you have FSD, and if so, was the review at all accurate?

 

[Kevy Baby]

Just wondering..do you have FSD, and if so, was the review at all accurate?

Answering for myself, but I never got past the click-bait headline. Because of that, anything he wrote was invalidated.

I have the FSD trial (just got it Sunday). It's amusing but still has a lot work needed and I will let others break it in.

Prior to that, I had EAP. I don't use NoAP (probably the #1 "feature" of EAP) and I am not at all impressed by it. I checked it out once in a while, but was never satisfied with it. I do have two places on my commute where I do use it, but it is mainly for the novelty of it. However, the lane changing while on AP is for me a huge bonus. And Smart Summon is useful once in a while but it is mostly a party trick. Dumb Summon is very handy for pulling into and out of our garage.

 

[Jagular]

Ugh! Here I was praising v12 and guess what? My wife’s MYP was driving us home and curbed the holy crap out of two of our wheels! WTAF Tesla!!!

 

[ewoodrick]

I've a similar experience as you. I've noticed the speed limit thing as well. It seems to just randomly decide that the speed limit is different, and not even from seeing a sign. I use TACC and Autosteer all the time and have never noticed the speed limit issues like on FSD.

Probably going to get flamed but I really just don't see what the point is. Sure some parts of it are pretty impressive, like how it handles blind right turns by creeping out until it can see. But to me it's like having a 15 year old learner drive me around. I have to constantly supervise it, and I spend more brainpower resetting my speed all the time and monitoring the car than I would if I just drove it myself. I can also navigate quickly and more efficiently myself. Auto lane change is really the only useful feature. I love my Model Y, TACC and Autosteer are great, I use them all the time. But I just don't see what the point of FSD is, it doesn't save any brainpower or time.

Why flame you, you just gave a pretty good review. "Being slow and cautious" is far from being bad.
Speed is something that I'm sure will get updated, it's version 1 of the new speed control.

And yep, if you compare it to a 15 year old, then that's pretty awesome that Tesla has gotten the car to drive in less time than it takes a human to learn.

It's still beta software, so it's not expected to be perfect yet.

 

[ewoodrick]

No longer beta. Now it's "supervised" in the Autopilot section of the vehicle controls. On the order page, there are no qualifications at all.


V12 won't abide by our speed selections the way V11 did. V12 actively selects the speed based on driving conditions. All we can do is set a manual limit on the maximum speed. In my experience, V12 has problems with being too conservative, not too aggressive. Others say that it'll get pretty aggressive.

Before anyone asks, I drive with Assertive.

Don't get stuck on semantics. It's still not full FSD.

V12 uses a new speed control. It has room for improvement.

 

[Kevy Baby]

For anyone who doesn’t want the FSD trial and just wants to go back to regular AP, it is actually very easy. Just go to Menu > Autopilot and select the Autosteer option (TACC comes with it). You can even make the change while driving (though you can go back to FSD until you park).

 

[petercc9]

Warning: long detailed post ahead so get comfy if you choose to read it. I broke it up a little bit for those who want to read certain aspects.

► Overview:
This may be an unpopular opinion in this pro-Tesla community with many members to whom Tesla can do no wrong. I know that Tesla wants to get people to experience it in hopes they'll fall in love with it and not only buy it but tell others all about how amazing it is. The problem with this is that it's not there yet. Maybe one day, years from now, it will be. It's not there yet. So what they're doing is forcing people who have likely not experienced any form of AP themselves to experience full FSD as their first "dip of the toe into water" so to speak. This isn't a good idea. Those who have never experienced anything other than cruise control (I'm old enough to remember when this was a hotly contested feature along the lines of Autopilot) will be overwhelmed and not in the positive way that Elon thinks.


► Prime example:
A good friend of mine who's very into vehicles and tech who's also a smart fella bought himself a Model Y about 6-7 months ago. He'd been in our Teslas numerous times but had never really experienced any of the driver's aids himself. Just heard us talk about it so had at least an idea of what to expect with his. He took delivery and had 3-months of FSD trial. Gave it an honest trial and hated it. Now he will ONLY use TACC and nothing I can say about how great TACC + Lane Keep is will get him to even consider trying it again. I would label him as an average consumer, probably on the younger or more tech advanced side who would be most receptive to trying this sort of thing. In other words, the exact consumer Tesla is trying to convert. It's having the opposite effect based on new owners that I've talked to.


► Our first hand experience:
In my experience it's trash. I was pretty excited to get it as we have a trip coming up to Dallas which is an awful place to drive... even with good navigation which Teslas have. I was excited for the prospect of letting the car do the driving for us. We took delivery of our new Model Y that included the 1-month that everyone is currently getting along with the 3-months for self-referring for a total of 4 months. I even bragged to my wife when I discovered that those stacked when I was afraid they might overlap and I'd "only" get 3 months of use. I even joked that I sure hope I didn't get addicted and then feel compelled to buy it for $12k.

I went ahead and enabled it along with all of the related whiz-bang features, bells & whistles. We had a few hours worth of driving to do (city and highway both) so I thought it would be a great test since it was in areas we lived in and near so I knew them well.

At first I thought it was neat. But the more I used it, the worse it got. I had "Mad Max" and "Aggressive" set and the car was anything but those. Whenever it encountered a stop sign at an intersection, even if there was no cars or pedestrians in site, it would come to a full stop some 15ft before the line, wait about 5 seconds and then slowly creep forward to the line before stopping AGAIN. Why? What's the purpose of this. Then, it would proceed to take another 20 seconds or so to slowly make the turn through the intersection.

This was if there was ZERO cars, pedestrians or anything I would consider needed to be accounted for. Just a ghost town, an intersection and a single Tesla w/FSD enabled. In other words, a best case scenario. In all of these instances I didn't have someone behind me (thankfully) so I gave it full freedom to sort itself out. It was laughable.

This would magnified dramatically if there was any type of foliage, fence or other obstructions that was even close to the intersection. Not even in the line of site but just existed. It would creep a foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, wait 5 seconds... you get the point. It did this every. single. time. It was painful.

At one point, it tried to take us the wrong way down a one-way exit from a parking lot. I had to take over, stop it, reverse backwards back into the lot as cars were trying to exist a very busy road into the parking lot and had to sit and wait on me to sort things out since the lane was only wide enough for one vehicle, marked clearly as exit only multiple ways and curved for traffic coming into the parking lot.

On 4-lane highways it was doing all sorts of unexpected things. On one stretch of 65mph road we were the only vehicle within about a mile in any direction and, seemingly for no reason, it changed lanes from the right lane to the left lane. I assumed it wanted to be there so I just let it do it's things. About 30 seconds after establishing itself in the left lane, it then signaled and went back to the right lane, seemingly for no reason once again. I jokingly said it just passed a ghost car that wasn't there because it's behavior was about what you'd expect from passing a car on the highway doing a few mph less... but there was no car there.

Then, not 5min later, I came up on a car that was doing about 50mph in a 65mph zone. I had the offset of the car set to 11% so I was doing 72mph. The car came up behind the slower car and simply decreased speed to follow it at a safe distance at 50mph. There was not another car anywhere near us. I left it there for almost 2-painful-minutes to give it ample time to pass the slower car safely. I finally took over and manually passed to car to kick it back up to speed. Keep in mind that I have every user-setting available set to the most aggressive version possible as I'm not faint-of-heart when it comes to driving plus I've owned 9 Teslas now... 8 with AP of one form or another.

The last straw for me was a series of nanny alerts telling me to keep my eyes on the road to include one where it warned me to keep my eyes on the road after turning my head to check my blind spot before passing another car on a 4-lane highway. I had to look at the screen to see what it was on about and when I realized it wanted me to watch the road I looked back up to the road. Out of the corner of my eye I saw it go away so I knew I had satisfied it. It wasn't 10 seconds later I needed to look back at the screen since FSD was doing all sorts of weird things with the speed limit (it wouldn't recognize 65mph signs and would keep the "seen" sign at 45mph for a single multi-mile stretch that had several different 65mph signs along the way) to include going way above or way below my set speed (even after I disabled the stupid "auto speed based on other traffic" feature available in FSD) so I looked at the screen to check my current speed was where I wanted it. No joke, as I moved my eyes from the road to the speed limit it popped up again.. in that same instant.

I was pretty upset with it at this point. My first thought was "if I get 5 strikes or whatever it is... will I also lose base Autopilot as a punishment as well?" because I wasn't sure. It's not clear. As I was considering being w/o the Base Autopilot for our upcoming road trip and how annoying that would be we came up on a stop light. We were in the left lane and there was no cars in front of us. In the right lane was a single car that was already at a stop at the red light. The car made a borderline aggressive stop to signal and get behind the stopped car. Why? On the heals of the nanny BS in the previous paragraph that was it for me. I was done with this little experience. I went back to the middle option that is basically TACC and Lane keep, disabled all of the other "features" below that and effectively took our car back to Base Autopilot as best as possible.


► Conclusion:
All this FSD trial period did for me was confirm that FSD was laughable at $12k. I truly feel for all of those who paid for it. Even in 2024 many years after we were promised robo-taxis would be the norm. Tesla needs to stop forcing the unfinished version of FSD onto the average car driver. Simply put: it's terrifying in it's current state. People are already uneasy about letting a "computer" drive for them (with good reason) and then you reinforce this assumption with a dreadful and downright dangerous experience where the safety and very lives of them and their loved ones are at risk. Most don't realize that there are version short of FSD that actually offer a tremendous driver experience and a wonderful entry into letting a "computer" assist them with driving a car. Not only do they not need to force FSD in it's current stage upon the average consumer but they also need to stop working functions for future functions that aren't yet ready.

Well they have been facing "put up or shut up" criticism of FSD for years.

Now that they have declared themselves data limited instead of processing power limited they are probably gathering all the times v12 users have a disengagement to quickly improve their software. It's a calculated risk to current North American users but it can provide dividends for the rest of their world market (which is ~66% of Tesla owners..remember they have received NOTHING FSD-wise except biting their lips for YEARS over all our FSD BETA complaining/nitpicking/squabbling without them having been giving one iota of a chance to participate) and of course future buyers.

The reality is we may need international participation to get this thing working smoothly.

 

[Kevy Baby]

The reality is we may need international participation to get this thing working smoothly.

It's all about taking measured steps. It was smart to focus first on very small groups (limited Beta), then increase the pool (Public Beta, now this NA temporary rollout). Yes, it will get better when they get more data, but it was wise to not just throw it out to everyone worldwide.

Which, admittedly, sucks for everyone else, but is still the smart approach.

 

[QUBO]

Whenever it encountered a stop sign at an intersection, even if there was no cars or pedestrians in site, it would come to a full stop some 15ft before the line, wait about 5 seconds and then slowly creep forward to the line before stopping AGAIN. Why? What's the purpose of this. Then, it would proceed to take another 20 seconds or so to slowly make the turn through the intersection.

This was if there was ZERO cars, pedestrians or anything I would consider needed to be accounted for. Just a ghost town, an intersection and a single Tesla w/FSD enabled. In other words, a best case scenario. In all of these instances I didn't have someone behind me (thankfully) so I gave it full freedom to sort itself out. It was laughable.

Your "best case scenario" has been my experience as well, set at Average, with the 2024.23.10. If there were other cars approaching it seemed to be a bit better, but not enough for me to trust it not to pause in the middle of a turn.

How do you explain a NN's behavior, "it was trained that way".

 

[KelvinMace]

TACC is not meant for use on surface streets, nor anywhere where you would encounter traffic control lights (not even a metered on ramp).

Huh? Up until now, I have been using it for precisely that. It stopped at stop signs and red lights, even yield signs. There is even a setting to turn the function on and off. I have been using it that way for about 2 years. Worked absolutely flawlessly until the latest V12 update broke it. Now it stops at green lights.

 

[KelvinMace]

I’m sure that will be addressed with either a bug fix or in a month when the trial runs it course.

Try and make the best of the gift horse for a few weeks. I assure you, you won’t be forced to buy it and your vehicle will be returned to its previous inferior state.

Well, I bought FSD (then called Autopilot) back in 2018 for $3K. V12 is a vast improvement over v11, but the software is still not ready for prime time.

 

[zoomer0056]

Huh? Up until now, I have been using it for precisely that. It stopped at stop signs and red lights, even yield signs. There is even a setting to turn the function on and off. I have been using it that way for about 2 years. Worked absolutely flawlessly until the latest V12 update broke it. Now it stops at green lights.

Hmm ... maybe that is a feature of EAP, that is definitely a feature of FSD (supervised). Basic Autopilot TACC does not stop except when the car ahead stops. From the Model S manual: