[UK] Anyone else considering refusing delivery by of Model Y? (USS)

[Frankb70]

In my opinion you've done everything a consumer could be reasonably expected to do in order to make an informed purchase. You tested the product, asked detailed questions, asked them to confirm, then confirm again in writing regarding the USS Vision replacement issue. You've quite reasonably trusted that the staff are competent, honest and accurate in their information. I don't think anyone can accuse you of not having done basic research.

The only thing more you could have done was to have joined a site like this months before your delivery and thoroughly familiarised yourself with the Tesla 'scene' and how the company operates. Then you would have known many things, like 'coming soon' is meaningless, that the staff in fact know less than you can find out yourself following a Tesla news blog, they'll make stuff up and arguably outright lie. But I don't think this level of research is really a reasonable expectation of a consumer!

I may just sound nosey now, but per my previous conversation with you, I'm still genuinely interested to get to the bottom of whether you bought EAP, or FSD? From your previous posts it certainly sounds like you might have been duped into buying FSD when all you really wanted was EAP by the same staff you thought were being honest and helpful, but who were in fact a bit full of *sugar*!

Thanks for your reply, no I don't believe I was duped, Whilst a senior citizen and a retired electrical engineer, I have always looked forwards in modern technology, have invested in solar and battery storage to benefit myself, my younger family and the community. I had a Honda CRV diesel EX with the full safety pack and was please with Honda reliability and support, but unfortunately I did not believe that Hybrid was the way forwards therefor looked at EV vehicles.
EPA was essential as having had knee replacements paying £3400,00 for the facility of being able to pull the car out of a tight space to open the door was worth the money avoiding twisting on the right knee, along with the very sophisticated parking sensors showing distance in inches which made parking extreamly easy.

Regarding the FSD, I was advised that if I purchased it it was my decision, the advantages were that as improvements towards future autonomous driving software and hardware would be included at no additional future cost.

Therefore on FSD I went into it with the full knowledge that as improvements made would be immediately available within to the vehicle but automatous driving was some distance away.

 

[Frankb70]

Right and the vision solution is part of the same v11 FSD stack which moves from the almost 5 year old legacy single camera implementation to using them all at once to map the car in 3D space.

v11 is close, it was expected to ship at the end of last year but it’s a massive change and was delayed by unanticipated bugs, then NHTSA in the US demanded further changes and a recall which has delayed it further while they fix those issues which also wasn’t foreseen.

You cant just separate the parking part and ship that when it’s fundamentally tied to the rest of v11 and they don’t have a crystal ball for recalls or bugs, so *sugar* happens sometimes. Not a big deal. certainly not big enough to cancel an order over a trivial piece of equipment that only gets used about 1% of the time you’re interacting with the vehicle while it’s traveling under 5mph and about a meter away from an object.

Boombag, you don't dump 90% of facilities on FSD is you don't have a suby-do to replace it ....Its FRAUD

 

[boombap]

Boombag, you don't dump 90% of facilities on FSD is you don't have a suby-do to replace it ....Its FRAUD

Lol. It isn’t fraud at all.

It might be fraud if they weren’t open about the fact they were removing USS, that there would be a gap in functionality before the new version shipped, hadn’t removed the relevant text about them from their website early last year, or they were just pretending that they were working on a replacement, but that isn’t the case.

Unanticipated software delays do not count as fraud.

edit: how does one change their username? I quite like Boombag.

 

[Zilla91]

So as a stakeholder if they had an estimate of February and then missed it, yourself and all the other pearl clutchers would still be outraged, so there’s zero benefit.

Shifting the goalposts now, aren't you? You said software development doesn't work like that and when I called you out for your BS you change the subject and throw insults.

I work in software dev

Cool story, a lot of people on this forum do.

then ship, then test

Ship to production and test later? Explains a lot about you, with that mindset no serious organisation would hire you.

break things down in continuous planning and delivery cycles

And those development cycles are a set period of time, where the work is estimated to be completed within it.

Almost sounds like estimating how long a piece of work will take to complete.

 

[Midpack]

So have I and I agree that it hasn't been a problem but I fully understand why so many people are annoyed.

My wife has become paranoid about reversing as she relied on the sensors in our Model 3 and for her it's completely taken the shine off of the Model Y or any future Tesla ownership. I suspect there will be a lot like her.

…functionality every other car of similar vintage/price does have.

All well and good software/hardware development is uncertain, just don’t remove USS associated features until you have alternative replacement functionality for current owners. It’s not ‘rocket surgery.’

 

[boombap]

Shifting the goalposts now, aren't you? You said software development doesn't work like that and when I called you out for your BS you change the subject and throw insults.

I didn’t throw insults, I just used a descriptive term for the faux outrage and wasted emotion in these utterly pointless whingefest threads.

 

[LiamPope]

Thanks for your reply, no I don't believe I was duped...

Regarding the FSD, I was advised that if I purchased it it was my decision, the advantages were that as improvements towards future autonomous driving software and hardware would be included at no additional future cost.

Well, that's the thing - an explicit written promise of any necessary hardware upgrades disappeared from their website long ago. The final nail was put in that coffin for people clinging to that hope recently when they announced there would be no upgrade/retrofitting of HW4 just around the corner into any HW3 vehicle. So you're stuck with the same hardware as anyone who didn't buy FSD.

But other than that little white lie, looks like you were well enough aware FSD is £3400 for sketchy response to traffic lights and some hopes and dreams! You pays your money and you takes your chances! From another electrical engineer, I do hope you enjoy the car and get the features you paid for asap!

 

[Hurricane]

So as a stakeholder if they had an estimate of February and then missed it, yourself and all the other pearl clutchers would still be outraged, so there’s zero benefit.

I work in software dev, a decade ago you’d have a project manager who would spend ages gathering requirements with analysts and creating a thousand page project document and a plan (aka: the big lie) with an estimate of 6 month or a year and then be late anyway because the numbers are always pulled out of their or someone else’s arses and never catch all the dependencies or unknown unknowns anyway.

Now most competent organisations don’t do that anymore because it’s a waste of everyone’s time. Instead we identify the big rocks and break things down in continuous planning and delivery cycles, then ship, then test, then improve and repeat. Which is exactly what Tesla have been doing with the vision replacement running in shadow mode. They could tell you it’ll be ready next sprint but they’d be lying because the truth is nobody knows until they test it and discover the bug that was fixed didn’t introduce another.

If Elon said ”two weeks” that’d also be meaningless and people get pissed about that kind of statement for FSD too. So you can choose between an estimate that’ll probably be wrong, or a vague “coming soon“ and they’re both exactly as meaningful and informative as one another.

You don’t have to like it, but it’s true.

So don’t disable USS until the software is ready.

 

[Drew57]

Unanticipated software delays do not count as fraud.

History predicts the future & almost everything with Tesla happens well beyond the 'promised' deadline, if at all. "Coming soon", "for a short period of time", "in the near future" and numerous other meaningless utterances just don't cut it.

If 'unanticipated software delays' are so prevalent then why can't the development team forget all the childish fringe & future dream stuff and concentrate on providing cars that at least manage the basic things that customers expect?

 

[boombap]

So don’t disable USS until the software is ready.

If you’ve already cancelled the supplier orders, that isn’t a realistic option. Should, woulda, coulda.

 

[boombap]

History predicts the future & almost everything with Tesla happens well beyond the 'promised' deadline, if at all. "Coming soon", "for a short period of time", "in the near future" and numerous other meaningless utterances just don't cut it.

If 'unanticipated software delays' are so prevalent then why can't the development team forget all the childish fringe & future dream stuff and concentrate on providing cars that at least manage the basic things that customers expect?

I expect my car to take me places. It does. I can still park it without hitting things. There is no issue here.

 

[WyoDude]

Tesla have on several occasions used 'safety' as a justification for their decision to switch from USS to Vision based solutions in their responses to me so perhaps direct your question to them?!

"Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions...."

USS while helpful, it is a convenience feature.

 

[Type2]

Genius? No.
Pragmatic? Sure.

As mentioned previously, I had a USS failure on my old 3 and there are several threads on this forum and elsewhere right now with others also suffering from park assist not available problems due to sensor issues. They were an unreliable part that fail far more regularly than is ideal and the solution often requires a hardware replacement of the USS controller.

I’ve had a Y without USS for several months now and it really isn’t a problem. Haven’t curbed a wheel or scratched a bumper at all. It’s really not worth getting your panties in a knot over. Given the choice between no USS or another potential service centre trip to fix them when they break, I’d take no sensors every time.

What is pragmatic about removing a feature before the replacement is ready? Sounds like complete lunacy to me.

You really don’t get the argument. I’m so glad you haven’t scratched your car, and while you may be able to parallel park a juggernaut in a standard sized parking space with your eyes closed that doesn’t excuse Tesla removing a paid for product with no replacement. Especially as Tesla did not communicate this omission to all their customers.

 

[boombap]

What is pragmatic about removing a feature before the replacement is ready? Sounds like complete lunacy to me.

You really don’t get the argument. I’m so glad you haven’t scratched your car, and while you may be able to parallel park a juggernaut in a standard sized parking space with your eyes closed that doesn’t excuse Tesla removing a paid for product with no replacement. Especially as Tesla did not communicate this omission to all their customers.

They haven’t removed a paid-for product.

By definition anyone collecting a new Tesla that doesn’t have the hardware installed didn’t pay for it. If you went for service after collecting the car and they removed the sensors or they disabled them on existing cars, then sure you could make that argument, but that isn’t the case.

The pragmatic part is eliminating a point of frequent failure which leads to a poor customer experience and increased service needs when there are multiple redundant alternatives like the three rear facing cameras. Two of which weren’t even available to the user a few years ago and were added for free at no charge as a software update.

 

[Drew57]

What is pragmatic about removing a feature before the replacement is ready? Sounds like complete lunacy to me.

You really don’t get the argument. I’m so glad you haven’t scratched your car, and while you may be able to parallel park a juggernaut in a standard sized parking space with your eyes closed that doesn’t excuse Tesla removing a paid for product with no replacement. Especially as Tesla did not communicate this omission to all their customers.

Let's see what happens among the wider new and potential customer base - this forum, Facebook groups etc may or may not be representative.

Like @boombap I haven't encountered any issues without USS but like you and most others posting here I am extremely angry with the way Tesla continue to handle issues like this. It isn't the first and won't be the last.

 

[spdpsba]

Let's see what happens among the wider new and potential customer base - this forum, Facebook groups etc may or may not be representative.

Like @boombap I haven't encountered any issues without USS but like you and most others posting here I am extremely angry with the way Tesla continue to handle issues like this. It isn't the first and won't be the last.

You may have had Tesla’s before but one crucial aspect of any big software company is their focus on their own vision and philosophy. You may not like it or angry for all kind of reasons but whether it is Jobs, Gates, Nadella, Sundar pichai or Elon they pursue it irrespective of glitches. Sometimes these products may fail and there are hundreds of examples, however, their laser like focus isn’t going to change. If using this forum is a way to ventilate your anger, of course, go ahead but you will also hear contrary views to yours and they may be right too.

One classic recent example of a product that just lost its relevance because Google’s parent company Alphabet decided to pursue their own ambition is Fitbit. Once google bought Fitbit it is clear their ambition is to develop their own smart watches. On its own it isn’t a problem for consumers but what Google did was to stop the ecosystem or the product’s functionality compared to what it used to be when consumers bought it. Now you can’t download music to Fitbit from your other music collections and that’s it - Fitbit has become just a exercise monitoring tool not the revolutionary product google acquired. But all these great features once in Fitbit are in Pixel watches. Now think of the consumers who bought Fitbit with the hope of using it for exercise and listening to music - their basic functionality is changed and I don’t think anyone could sue google as their product isn’t what is advertised.

You can be angry about it and say that in the forums but beyond that not much. Fitbit doesn’t cost much so it may not be a major issue for most. But in general software companies have their vision and philosophy and Tesla is a software company first then it is a car manufacturer.

 

[Zilla91]

I didn’t throw insults, I just used a descriptive term for the faux outrage and wasted emotion in these utterly pointless whingefest threads.

If it bothers you that much stop wasting your time and let us waste our emotions in peace

 

[Drew57]

Tesla is a software company first then it is a car manufacturer.

Yes, that's what I originally bought into and hope will eventually prevail.

However, as the company moves into the mainstream the majority of customers will purchase a Tesla expecting it to just be 'a car' & with the added benefit of advanced tech. Nevertheless, most of the negatives seem to come either from that tech itself or from hardware choices based around it (lights, wipers, screens not buttons, removal of stalks on S & X, reliance on cameras etc). There's a real risk that the many positives get lost in a sea of frustration about things that should never be an issue in the first place.

Everyone expressing negative opinions wants a car that 'works' as well in the basics as any other manufacturer & when something is replaced or added it needs to be done in a positive, progressive way.

Is that too much to ask?

 

[boombap]

If it bothers you that much stop wasting your time and let us waste our emotions in peace

Likewise, feel free to use the block function if you don’t like my opinion.

 

[boombap]

Yes, that's what I originally bought into and hope will eventually prevail.

However, as the company moves into the mainstream the majority of customers will purchase a Tesla expecting it to just be 'a car' & with the added benefit of advanced tech. Nevertheless, most of the negatives seem to come either from that tech itself or from hardware choices based around it (lights, wipers, screens not buttons, removal of stalks on S & X, reliance on cameras etc). There's a real risk that the many positives get lost in a sea of frustration about things that should never be an issue in the first place.

Everyone expressing negative opinions wants a car that 'works' as well in the basics as any other manufacturer & when something is replaced or added it needs to be done so in a positive, progressive way.

Is that too much to ask?

The car does work. It drives. There are zero instances of not being able to park because of a lack of sensors because people have eyes and multiple cameras to assist them.