Will the new CCS enabled superchargers have long cables?

We've seen the announcement that Tesla will open 3,500 supercharger stalls (probably new ones) to use by CCS cars and, announcing this in concert with the White House, will presumably receive federal money to do this. The question is, just how big an opening of the network is this?

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers | The White House

Made in America Policies and New Technical Standards Support the Future of the Electric Vehicle Charging Industry, Public and Private Actions Accelerate Buildout of National Network and Catalyze Manufacturing Boom Today, the Biden-Harris Administration announced its latest set of actions aimed...

www.whitehouse.gov

In particular, none of the supposedly "leaked" diagrams of Tesla's "magic dock" -- sometimes depicted as a NACS to CCS adapter built into the stall which can be unlocked and used by CCS cars, and sometimes shown as a dual-cord stall -- show an ordinary length charging cord. All Tesla drivers know it can be fairly hard to get the Tesla cord into their car's port which is right at the rear corner of the car. No other car has the port exactly at that corner (or the opposite front) though the Lexus and Mitsubishi have it somewhat close, and maybe an e-Tron could pull it off with a slightly longer cord. Hyunda/Kias could use it if they parked half a parking space over which we don't want.

Tesla could, to be sneaky, keep their cord and say "we support CCS" but for very few cars. They don't care that much about the bad press this would bring. Tesla cords now use liquid cooling and you can't just stick an extension cord on them.

The expansion is not that much. Tesla has 17,000 chargers now and says it will have double that (34,000) in the same timeframe, so only 10% of their stalls will support CCS. These will presumably be only new installations, and possibly not all the stalls at a station to boot. There are some places like Oregon where getting grants requires having a 350kW station, which Tesla can presumably support with their new V4 supercharger which handles up to 1,000v.

The WH announcement talks of even more money beyond the $5B NEVI program being administered by the states. That program puts a lot of rules on stations which don't match the way Tesla designs stations -- and usually stupid rules, though a few of them, like support for plug-and-charge and exporting stall availability status to appear in other apps, make sense. Screens, credit cards and 150kW minimums at all times on 4 ports are mistakes that come from the government and lobbyists designing your charging station.

Tesla has many other avenues to discourage non-Tesla use of these 10% of their chargers. They will charge CCS drivers more, but they are also offering a $1/month membership according to reports which will bring the price down. Nothing would forbid them from giving power priority to Teslas (or members) except at the 4 NEVI stalls. And they could make only a few stalls support CCS, making the stations less attractive to CCS drivers. (If a station has 32 stalls and only 4 support your car, you may feel less inclined to use it.)

Or will they, as they have said they want to do, embrace the CCS cars -- give them good prices, make all stalls support CCS and put longer cords on all stalls, at least for a CCS cord?

"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[MP3Mike]

If you mean this, it would reach more cars (which is better than almost none)

Why do you say that it would reach almost none? I guess all those "almost none" drivers in Europe/UK/Australia appreciate Tesla.

Yes, some of them end up parked in the wrong stall and are potentially blocking a stall, but the cable still reaches and works for them. (Hopefully those vehicles park next to each other so only one stall is blocked.)

Bjorn even has a video showing how cars with the port on the "wrong" side should park at various Supercharger layouts:

Even an Audi e-Tron can make it work:

Even if they are blocking a stall it shouldn't be a problem. 1) You keep insisting that sites are rarely full and there is no need to move when you are done charging, so blocking a stall shouldn't be an issue either. 2) Tesla is likely only going to open sites that have lower utilization rates.

Tesla does say it won't work for all cars:

Does the Supercharger cable reach all EVs?
Certain Supercharger site layouts may not be suitable for some cars. Please do not obstruct other cars by parking over the lines if the cable cannot comfortably reach your car.

That comment alone could probably disqualify them from NEVI funding, if they hold to that same thing when they open North American sites.

 

[sleepydoc]

I think they did it for home charging (in the US), where people typically pull into their (attached) garage, and going back to plug in the cable on the driver's side is the most convenient without the possibility of tripping over the cable when walking past the car.

They did it in that location (driver side rear) even in the Roadster which didn't have DC charging. Their destination chargers for the Roadster had cables long enough to reach even when pulling in.

That philosophy only works in single car garages. We have a 2 car garage and need to park our Tesla on the right side. If the port were in the front it wouldn’t really matter but placing the port in the back created all sorts of logistical issues. I could mount the charger on the left wall but then it would need to run behind or over our other car. I could mount it on the right wall but then it would have to run behind or over the Tesla or I could mount it on the back wall but then I had to make sure the cord was long enough and it’s constantly being dragged on the garage floor (and poses a trip hazard.) If we should get another EV then there’s no place we could mount a charger where it would reach both cars. Backing in to our garage is not practical, either.

This brings up another point - the vast majority of charging occurs at home, not at superchargers, so it would make more sense to optimize positioning for home charging, not supercharging.

my final point is that the rear camera on my MY is often so cloudy that I can’t accurately use it for backing. On several occasions when I’m on a road trip I have difficulty backing in because the view out the rear is poor and I have a blurry camera. In these cases, pulling in is far cheaper. I reallyh don’t buy the ‘backing in is safer’ excuse.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That philosophy only works in single car garages. We have a 2 car garage and need to park our Tesla on the right side. If the port were in the front it wouldn’t really matter but placing the port in the back created all sorts of logistical issues. I could mount the charger on the left wall but then it would need to run behind or over our other car. I could mount it on the right wall but then it would have to run behind or over the Tesla or I could mount it on the back wall but then I had to make sure the cord was long enough and it’s constantly being dragged on the garage floor (and poses a trip hazard.) If we should get another EV then there’s no place we could mount a charger where it would reach both cars. Backing in to our garage is not practical, either.

For two cars, an overhead cable mount would work best.

Something like this for example:

Retractable Overhead Charger Cable Mount Parts for Tesla Model - Etsy Australia
I have seen some with an arm so that gives you even more adjustment. I probably would install one if I ever get a second EV. Currently with only one, parking on the left and having the charger on the left wall works great.

The problem with front is the way attached garages are laid out, every time you walk past the front of the car, it's a trip hazard, and at least for me, I walk past the front of the car far more often then I ever have to walk past the driver side rear.

This brings up another point - the vast majority of charging occurs at home, not at superchargers, so it would make more sense to optimize positioning for home charging, not supercharging.

my final point is that the rear camera on my MY is often so cloudy that I can’t accurately use it for backing. On several occasions when I’m on a road trip I have difficulty backing in because the view out the rear is poor and I have a blurry camera. In these cases, pulling in is far cheaper. I reallyh don’t buy the ‘backing in is safer’ excuse.

For lining up the car, I use the mirrors and the side cameras. For the rear camera, even if it gets completely obscured at high speeds in the rain (a common problem that I am planning to make or buy a shield to address), I find when I reach back to local speeds it clears itself. I do wash my car every week or two however and wash the camera also in the progress, so that may make a difference. I have read people say it makes a difference if you even do a quick swipe of the rear camera every time you get in, instead of almost never washing it.

 

[Rocky_H]

Tesla likely did this due to the innumerable number of studies that show reverse in or even better, pull through parking to be demonstrably safer than forward in. Every fleet program worth anything has stringent reverse in parking requirements.

How old are those studies though? I would be really interested in seeing one of those repeated now.

This seems like one of those cases where changes in society and technology invalidate old data that is now wrong and outdated. It would be very much like referencing phone call use studies from back when all phones were wired land lines. That data is outdated versus now where almost all phones are mobile.

Those studies showing backing in as safer certainly USED TO BE true when backup cameras didn't exist. When you are in a parking garage with big trucks along both sides of you, and all you have to use is direct line of sight of your eyes, then sure, geometry dictates that you would have to stick most of your car out into the aisle before your eyes get an angle to see if anyone is coming. So backing out is the more dangerous case without a backup camera.

But with a backup camera, the whole situation reverses itself about which is safer. If I am trying to pull out forward, I still have that eye-angle problem, where I have to blindly stick the front of my car out into the aisle before getting enough angle see around the truck to see if anyone is coming. But with backing out, as soon as I put it in reverse gear, the fish-eye lens of the backup camera shows a 180 degree view down both directions of the aisle to see if anyone is coming before the car ever has to move at all! So backing out is the safer option now that backup cameras are required on all vehicles.

 

[GWord]

How old are those studies though? I would be really interested in seeing one of those repeated now.

It is all present day. This is a highly researched topic. Heck, just google “reverse in parking safety” and you will be greeted with hundreds of studies and fleet / safety training program results. Backup aides like cameras haven’t wildly transformed the landscape. They have had a mild impact on incident rates with a 17% reduction in incidents (IIHS) and 8% reduction in back over injuries. (NHTSA)

I manage an organization of professional drivers and have to live and breathe this stuff. I would be confident in predicting that someone would be hard pressed to find even one study or qualified professional opinion that advocates for widespread and general use of pull-in parking.

I personally don’t think you should bend over backwards trying to come up with a hypotheses that justifies pull-in parking. The data is way stacked against that. It’s probably good enough to just say that you value the convenience over the safety. Outside of a professional driving program, you have total authority to make that judgement call.

 

[Rocky_H]

This is one I am pretty curious to find out why the statistics are still coming out that way. Because firsthand experience is still exactly what it is. I know that when I am having to pull out forward, I CAN'T see, but when I get to back out, I CAN see around these big trucks. Being able to literally see if someone is coming first before having to pull out, simply seems like it would be the overwhelming factor in something like this. I know the statistical data is valuable, so I wonder why it is showing the opposite of what I experience.

I wonder if it's simply population shift. The requirement for having backup cameras in all newly built cars is pretty recent--like 5 years ago or so--so maybe this is just a factor that most cars still being driven don't have the backup cameras yet, so the statistics still show the population of old cars. As that migrates through attrition in the next couple of decades, it may continue to shift more until it flips.

 

[sleepydoc]

I seriously doubt backing safety is the reason Tesla put the port where they did. If they were really concerned with safety they would have made the superchargers drive through, like most gas pumps.

For two cars, an overhead cable mount would work best.

Something like this for example:

Retractable Overhead Charger Cable Mount Parts for Tesla Model - Etsy Australia
I have seen some with an arm so that gives you even more adjustment. I probably would install one if I ever get a second EV. Currently with only one, parking on the left and having the charger on the left wall works great.

I actually created a rail system for my cord, but that was more work than many people want to or are able to do, and should be unnecessary.

The problem with front is the way attached garages are laid out, every time you walk past the front of the car, it's a trip hazard, and at least for me, I walk past the front of the car far more often then I ever have to walk past the driver side rear.

This depends on the garage layout, but as I said, for a two car garage It will always be a problem and much more so. putting the cable towards the front like other makers do would make no difference for a car parked next to a wall but make it significantly better for cars parked on the other side.

For lining up the car, I use the mirrors and the side cameras. For the rear camera, even if it gets completely obscured at high speeds in the rain (a common problem that I am planning to make or buy a shield to address), I find when I reach back to local speeds it clears itself. I do wash my car every week or two however and wash the camera also in the progress, so that may make a difference. I have read people say it makes a difference if you even do a quick swipe of the rear camera every time you get in, instead of almost never washing it.

It’s all well and good In fair weather. Rain, snow and darkness make it an entirely different game. from multiple experiences, pulling in nose first is easier and safer. If you’ve just gotten off the highway I can guarantee that the camera view will never be better than your windshield.

As far as preserving room in the frunk goes, the charging bus takes a trivial amount of space and wouldn’t compromise the frunk at all, so that’s a non-issue.

 

[MP3Mike]

I seriously doubt backing safety is the reason Tesla put the port where they did. If they were really concerned with safety they would have made the superchargers drive through, like most gas pumps.

They don't have that luxury. They are at the mercy of the site hosts, which seem to normally want the chargers on the outside edge of their lots.

 

[MP3Mike]

I think we have our answer to the question this thread asked... And it is a NO!

From Reddit where someone was showing Tesla testing the MagicDock with a Rivian at what looks to be the Verona, NY Supercharger:

 

[MP3Mike]

What is that 12 down, 3,488 to go? (They are already more than 0.3% of the way to opening the number of Supercharger stalls they committed to have open by the end of 2024.)

So, they need to open ~3 sites per week until the end of 2024.

 

[tivoboy]

I think we have our answer to the question this thread asked... And it is a NO!

From Reddit where someone was showing Tesla testing the MagicDock with a Rivian at what looks to be the Verona, NY Supercharger:

Ok, THAT is GOING to S..K

 

[stopcrazypp]

What is that 12 down, 3,488 to go? (They are already more than 0.3% of the way to opening the number of Supercharger stalls they committed to have open by the end of 2024.)

So, they need to open ~3 sites per week until the end of 2024.

Seems pretty easy though, looks like they just open the cover and swap the dock. Wonder how the adapter actually looks though.

 

[bradtem]

Hmm. Well, I don't mind if they park sideways when the station is empty, but of course stations will fill and then you would hope they could do something to stop the people parking sideways. We need a new term aside from ICEing, where you block an EV stall because your car won't fit properly between the lines. Could call them Dock Blockers.

But is Tesla going to do anything to prevent Dock Blocking? Like knowing which models of car can't avoid it, and refusing to charge them if the station might fill up? No sign of a camera on the stall to see what people are doing though you could install some of the ultrasonics they took out from the cars and detect if somebody is blocking a stall but not charging in it.

They will get some complaints the first time somebody shows up to charge and they can't because they got dock blocked.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Hmm. Well, I don't mind if they park sideways when the station is empty, but of course stations will fill and then you would hope they could do something to stop the people parking sideways. We need a new term aside from ICEing, where you block an EV stall because your car won't fit properly between the lines. Could call them Dock Blockers.

But is Tesla going to do anything to prevent Dock Blocking? Like knowing which models of car can't avoid it, and refusing to charge them if the station might fill up? No sign of a camera on the stall to see what people are doing though you could install some of the ultrasonics they took out from the cars and detect if somebody is blocking a stall but not charging in it.

They will get some complaints the first time somebody shows up to charge and they can't because they got dock blocked.

In Europe they are doing controlled roll outs, presumably to stations with a lot of free capacity. But given Biden seems to want Tesla to do a full rollout in 2 years, probably a different strategy may need to be used. One strategy is they can do without change to hardware is to disable the starting of CCS charging when stations are near full (or reporting the stations as full to non-Teslas), but no sure if that will necessarily help much given there will still be shuffling of cars (for example cars arriving and finding they can't charge). I guess most of it still will depend on human courtesy.

I see in channels talking about charging, there is a lot of people that wish a queuing system can be developed for charging stations as there seems to be a lot of bad behavior happening and sometimes not on purpose (people may be confused who is next and where the line is).

 

[MP3Mike]

In Europe they are doing controlled roll outs, presumably to stations with a lot of free capacity. But given Biden seems to want Tesla to do a full rollout in 2 years, probably a different strategy may need to be used.

Full rollout? They only announced that Tesla would open about 10% of the US Supercharger network.

They only need to open about 3 sites per week to accomplish that.

 

[bradtem]

Telsa CCS ‘Magic Docks’ Revealed, But With Short Cords, Can Non-Tesla Cars Really Charge At Them?

These stalls have the built in CCS adapter known as the "Magic Dock" but otherwise have the same short charging cord common to Tesla Superchargers — a cord that can’t readily reach the charging ports on many non-Tesla cars. We may see some fights.

www.forbes.com

 

[stopcrazypp]

Full rollout? They only announced that Tesla would open about 10% of the US Supercharger network.

They only need to open about 3 sites per week to accomplish that.

I have read reporting that says they need to open 3500 stations by 2024 to non-Tesla charging and double their station count. Looking it up there are currently 1673 stations in the US (according to supercharge.info). It could be they mixed up stalls vs stations however.

 

[Big Earl]

I have read reporting that says they need to open 3500 stations by 2024 to non-Tesla charging and double their station count. Looking it up there are currently 1673 stations in the US (according to supercharge.info). It could be they mixed up stalls vs stations however.

You are mixing up stalls and stations.

 

[NYMY]

In Europe they are doing controlled roll outs, presumably to stations with a lot of free capacity. But given Biden seems to want Tesla to do a full rollout in 2 years, probably a different strategy may need to be used. One strategy is they can do without change to hardware is to disable the starting of CCS charging when stations are near full (or reporting the stations as full to non-Teslas), but no sure if that will necessarily help much given there will still be shuffling of cars (for example cars arriving and finding they can't charge). I guess most of it still will depend on human courtesy.

I see in channels talking about charging, there is a lot of people that wish a queuing system can be developed for charging stations as there seems to be a lot of bad behavior happening and sometimes not on purpose (people may be confused who is next and where the line is).

I think the big worry for me is that the "open charger" count becomes inaccurate. If you are planning to charge and you get there and free chargers are blocked and there's actually a wait, that will be a black eye for the experience.

Strikes me they should focus on sites with poor economics (low population, low traffic corridors) and build drive through on what might be cheaper property...

 

[cubicalclang]

That philosophy only works in single car garages. We have a 2 car garage and need to park our Tesla on the right side. If the port were in the front it wouldn’t really matter but placing the port in the back created all sorts of logistical issues. I could mount the charger on the left wall but then it would need to run behind or over our other car. I could mount it on the right wall but then it would have to run behind or over the Tesla or I could mount it on the back wall but then I had to make sure the cord was long enough and it’s constantly being dragged on the garage floor (and poses a trip hazard.) If we should get another EV then there’s no place we could mount a charger where it would reach both cars. Backing in to our garage is not practical, either.

This brings up another point - the vast majority of charging occurs at home, not at superchargers, so it would make more sense to optimize positioning for home charging, not supercharging.

my final point is that the rear camera on my MY is often so cloudy that I can’t accurately use it for backing. On several occasions when I’m on a road trip I have difficulty backing in because the view out the rear is poor and I have a blurry camera. In these cases, pulling in is far cheaper. I reallyh don’t buy the ‘backing in is safer’ excuse.

Our two car garage has two single doors separated by a pillar. This is common here for multi-car setups (we see three and four car setups this way as well, multiple single width garage doors). In our house we mounted the Tesla wall charger on the pillar; power was run from our fuse box on our lower level adjacent to the garage, through the ceiling between floors in armored conduit, and pops out right above the charger. This location can reach the Tesla parked straight in in either spot just fine, and depending on what second eventual EV we get (short list is a Y, a Polestar 3, or a Volvo EX90) the cord will reach any of them as well.

The nice thing too is our daily commuting makes it such that at least with the 3 we only have to charge once a week (80% limit; I tend to charge it on Friday nights and Sunday nights so we have juice for weekend toodling about and weekday commute driving). What this means though is with the single charger in that spot we just charge the eventual second vehicle on a different day and we don't need a second charger. Or, when I leave in the morning I can plug my wife's car in because she usually leaves several hours later than me. Either way works.