X-Ice is definitely quieter than Nokian and as efficient as the OEM Primacy.
Not sure how quiet or efficient the Alpin or the Tesla Performance snows are in comparison.
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Winter driving advice, winter tire choices, etc.
- Thread starter Colgate2004
- Start date
X-Ice is definitely quieter than Nokian and as efficient as the OEM Primacy.
Not sure how quiet or efficient the Alpin or the Tesla Performance snows are in comparison.
I'll be trying out the new Continental Viking Contact 7's this season. New for North America but I think it was available in Europe.
This review gave positive test results: Continental VikingContact 7 test ans review of the Continental ContiVikingContact 7 | AllTyreTests.com
Only two things I'm curious about is treadwear (I had X-Ice 3's in my previous car and they lasted a long time), and rolling resistance (X-ice 3 and Nokian Hakka R3 are better).
This review gave positive test results: Continental VikingContact 7 test ans review of the Continental ContiVikingContact 7 | AllTyreTests.com
Only two things I'm curious about is treadwear (I had X-Ice 3's in my previous car and they lasted a long time), and rolling resistance (X-ice 3 and Nokian Hakka R3 are better).
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
"Performance Winter" tires *are* "studless winter" tires. Let's not get caught up in terminology but it's important to know that what makes a tire a "winter" tire is the rubber compound. It generally has a tread optimized for traction in snow/ice/standing water as well but that's not what makes it a "winter" tire, it's the rubber compound. And all winter tires not capable of stud mounting are "studless winter" tires. These tend to perform better than studdable tires that haven't had studs installed (some studdable tires come either way). Studdable tires are quickly falling in popularity due to the excellent performance of modern studless winter tires. Performance winter tires have a rubber compound that is too soft to securely hold studs. That's how they get much of their ice/snow traction and, in many conditions and temperatures, they meet or exceed the snow and ice traction of a studded winter tire. In some conditions, the studs will have an advantage.
The rubber compound is the biggest determinant of how much ice traction you will have. This varies from manufacturer to manufacturer but any modern name brand winter tire will have decent ice traction due to the soft winter rubber compound. On a microscopic level, even the smooth parts of the tread can gain traction on snow and ice. If they made winter radial slicks with no tread whatsover, they would work passably in most snow/ice conditions. But these are not available because it's even better with tread.
The tread design is what separates the "performance winter" tires from tires designed to give ultimate snow traction. A performance winter tire is designed to handle higher cornering, braking and acceleration forces without the tread deforming excessively while the tread on a non-performance winter tire is specifically designed to deform under fore/aft/side loads to present the corner of the tread blocks to the traction surface. If they can bite in a little, this provides higher ultimate traction. But it comes at the expense of noise, vibration and performance on wet and dry pavement. A performance winter tire typically has a finer more "spidery" pattern and has tread blocks that are better supported so the tire doesn't feel like mush when cornering braking and accelerating. They still have good snow and ice performance due to their winter-specific rubber compound. Most people over-estimate the effectiveness of aggressive tread blocks vs. rubber compound. The rubber compound provides most of the winter driving benefit. Even Performance winter tires have treads that are designed to pack with fresh snow. Surprisingly, this increases traction substantially in fresh snow (which is composed of pointy crystals). The snow crystals interlock which adds to the level of traction.
I've driven two brands of performance winter tires and countless sets of winter tires designed for ultimate snow traction. When I discovered Performance Winter tires I left the others behind. I drive through a *lot* of very nasty mountain storms that sometimes extend all week and hit with surprising frequency. The road I drivemost often is steep, twisty and narrow (although not as steep as a steep driveway). I've never felt let down by performance winter radials. They are modern marvels and I highly recommend them unless you have special winter needs that go beyond the 95% of motorists who drive in a lot of winter snow/ice.
An example would be if you live in the country and have a long, very steep driveway that is not very well maintained and might have some off-camber sections (road slopes to one side or the other). In cases like this, you might just have to put up with winter tires designed for ultimate snow/ice traction, especially if you only have 2WD. But for people who normally only need to travel on normal city or county roads that develop icing and fresh snow between plowings, performance winter radials are amazing. I am no longer gritting my teeth in the spring hating the way my winter snow tires are driving on the mostly clear roads. I couldn't get them off soon enough which resulted in a number of hairy drives in snow and on icy patches with only all-season radials. The performance winter radials drive so smoothly, quietly and nicely that I can leave them on until all threat of winter ice has melted away.
Very informative post. Thank you.
I wonder why this thread was was moved to the battery and charging section. Much of it is about tires and wheels.
Not all non-Performance stud-less snows sacrifice quietness. The X-Ice is the quietest tire I’ve ever run (winter or simmer tire). Pretty amazing tire.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's not the noise that drives me nuts on most winter tires, it's their slightly mushy feeling steering response and poor pavement corner grip compared to a summer tire. That might not matter much if you drive a regular car, truck or SUV but on a crisp handling car like the Model 3, it really does take away a lot of driving pleasure. The other thing I like about performance winter tires is they give me more feedback when I'm on icy roads. I can feel how slippery the road is right through the steering wheel. Traditional winter tires are numb in terms of being able to give the driver feedback.
Yes, the X-Ice was soft handling. Not sure if I just got used to them or they stiffened up as it got colder. I’m trying Performance snows on my Model X this Winter. But sticking with X-Ice on a FWD Chevy Volt.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
That's just the nature of a car with all that glass and metal and no real insulation. ICE cars have a little warmth that continues to radiate through the firewall once the engine is thoroughly warmed up. This happens because ICE engines are incredibly inefficient (they turn more than 75% of all the energy consumed into heat (the number is 100% when idling). If you want the cabin to stay warmer in an EV, just leave the heater on. Sure, it's wasteful but so is driving a gasoline car. You can also leave the heat off but turn on the heated seats for each occupied seat. All five are individually controllable (High, Med, or Low). This will keep you warm while using a fraction of the energy.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Nope. Don't need to remove the Aero covers to drive in crap. I've done deep snow, slushy snow, graveled and sanded roads, etc. and never noticed any buildup of crap behind the Aero covers (I switch my own winter tires in/out each year so I would definitely notice something like that). They are a really nice design and will increase your highway range in the winter or summer.
Hey! Just for info, they have arrived at my local service center - ordered in September so not as bad as your experience last year!I see nothing has improved since last year
Last year I ordered around end October 2018 and actually got them end January 2019.
Crickets as well at that time......
YMMV
moltenfire
Member
That's good for you. I ordered in mid-Oct 2019 so hopefully I'll get a call from my service centre soon.
Hi all,
So happy to see this thread blossomed with as much information as it has.
I ended up just driving through last winter on the stock all-season tires (and the car handled admirably, with the only exception being when I tried to drive up the very steep driveway to my lake place in Maine that was completely iced over).
For this winter I'm planning on putting on a set of studded snows (I live in NH and split my time between MA, NH, and ME, and studs are legal in all three). I think I'm settling on the Nokian Hakka 8s.
(StealthP3D's comments about how far studless performance winter tires has come are well taken, but my perspective is that in the winter time I don't need to be 'performance' driving, especially given that I'll be driving a fair bit this winter with my newborn in the car. Rather, I'll be driving slowly and cautiously, with the lost traction on dry roads due to the studs more than outweighed by the worst fear of every New England driver, black ice.)
So happy to see this thread blossomed with as much information as it has.
I ended up just driving through last winter on the stock all-season tires (and the car handled admirably, with the only exception being when I tried to drive up the very steep driveway to my lake place in Maine that was completely iced over).
For this winter I'm planning on putting on a set of studded snows (I live in NH and split my time between MA, NH, and ME, and studs are legal in all three). I think I'm settling on the Nokian Hakka 8s.
(StealthP3D's comments about how far studless performance winter tires has come are well taken, but my perspective is that in the winter time I don't need to be 'performance' driving, especially given that I'll be driving a fair bit this winter with my newborn in the car. Rather, I'll be driving slowly and cautiously, with the lost traction on dry roads due to the studs more than outweighed by the worst fear of every New England driver, black ice.)
My conundrum now is whether to run one set of wheels, or two.
In my driving life up until now, I've always kept two sets of wheels, one with a set of summer tires and one with a set of winter tires each permanently mounted, and simply swapped them with the change in seasons.
What I've noticed though is that if you do this long enough, the wheels & tires inevitably get out of balance and even start leaking air.
So I'm thinking (especially given the hassle of buying and programming new TPMS sensors) it may be worth the time to just use one set of wheels and have the tires mounted, balanced, and sealed every six months.
Curious folks' thoughts there.
In my driving life up until now, I've always kept two sets of wheels, one with a set of summer tires and one with a set of winter tires each permanently mounted, and simply swapped them with the change in seasons.
What I've noticed though is that if you do this long enough, the wheels & tires inevitably get out of balance and even start leaking air.
So I'm thinking (especially given the hassle of buying and programming new TPMS sensors) it may be worth the time to just use one set of wheels and have the tires mounted, balanced, and sealed every six months.
Curious folks' thoughts there.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Studded tires will have a benefit on *some* kinds of black ice, not all. Tests done by the DOT of Washington State and other agencies show that as temperatures drop studded tires lose their effectiveness more than the best studless winter tires. The effect is so dramatic that at colder temperatures studless tires atually *outperform* studs on black ice. I know this seems counter-intuitive but there's a reason for it. Studless tires use a softer rubber compound that performs better at cold temperatures. Studded tires cannot use the same compounds because those compounds are too soft to adequately retain the studs at freeway speeds. So they need to compromise on the rubber compound. Studs have limited surface area with which to use for getting grip on ice and the colder it is, the harder the ice becomes to penetrate. Studless tires, on the other hand, use the entire tread area to get a grip on ice. The result is studs only have an advantage on ice in a relatively narrow band of temperatures around the freezing point. That's how far modern studless rubber compounds have come.
Having said that, studs do work particularly well when they are brand new, especially in milder temperatures. But even the hardest studs become abraded and rounded after as little as a few thousand miles. They still work but not nearly as well as when they were new. I don't buy a new set of winter tires every winter so the degradation of studs matters to me. Studless tires do get less tread depth as they wear but the rubber is continually wearing away and exposing a fresh layer that grips as well as the old layer. I do recommend that people avoid the dual compound studless tires that have a harder rubber compound that begins at approximately the 50% treadwear point. Because once they are half worn they are no longer winter tires.
Finally, the benefit of Performance Winter tires is not just for high-performance driving (at least not what I think of as high-performance). You will notice the nice handling qualities in everyday driving, even in mixed snow/ice/bare pavement. They make the car drive how it was designed to drive. And in the rain they will greatly outperform any studded tire. This is important to me from a safety perspective because people around here will regularly pick the speed up on the highway when the rain melts the snow/ice. It's at these high speeds on the highway that a safe tire could be the difference between life/death. When everyone is going slower, people tend to not lose their lives. To keep my family safe, I want a tire with good performance characteristics when speeds pick up. And a studded tire doesn't meet that requirement.
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StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I bought a set of four pre-programmed TPMS sensors off the Internet for $125. My local tire shop installed them for me when they mounted and balanced the tires on my new rims. No hassle at all. Within a few miles of leaving the shop a message popped up asking me what size tires I had installed. I selected 18" and it was good to go. No programming needed. The batteries are good for 10 years.
I highly recommend a set of winter wheels because it *greatly* simplifies the spring/fall changeover. And the tires and rims don't get beat up by repeated mountings/dismountings. Just bolt them up and go. I do it in my carport so I don't even need to visit my local tire store except when I get new tires.
Many thanks for the feedback.
You raise a good point about temperature, and the softer compounds in studless vs. (relatively) harder compounds in studded.
In the places where I drive we get lots of wet, messy driving conditions, but it doesn't usually get very cold... since I'm near the coasts it will snow/sleet/freezing rain plenty, but the temperatures rarely get below 20°F... we usually only get a few days a year with temperatures in the single digits or lower.
That to me means two things about the harder compound in studded tires: First, that maybe the softer compounds in studless winter tires may not be necessary, and also that it may in fact be a detriment; that the softer compound in relatively warmer temperatures might lead to excessive wear and shorter lifespan (I also like to try to get at least 2-3 winters out of a set of snow tires).
That's exactly what I've done for years; when the seasons changes, I just jack the car up and change the wheels over myself.
Doing this though, have you noticed your tires get out of balance? My last set even started to leak air.
I suppose when this happens I could go get the tires remounted and balanced on the same wheels, but that ends up defeating the purpose of having the second set of wheels in the first place...
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
The studless tires will work better in most slush and sleet conditions also. Often the wet slush is too thick to allow the studs to reach the pavement.
"Necessary" is a strange word to use because people drove on snow and ice for many decades without the recently developed winter rubber compounds. That's why studs were invented in the first place! So, no, the softer compounds are not "necessary" but they do greatly increase safety and vehicle control.
Excessive wear and shorter lifespans are one and the same thing. I haven't noticed any issues with that. On the contrary, studs become worn and rounded relatively quickly. Since I drive a lot in the mountains *and* at sea level, my winter tires see plenty of milder temperatures. Maintain proper air pressure and it's a non-issue.
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