Double vision (ghosting) at night through windshield?

[Raska]

I came across this article:

http://jalopnik.com/heres-what-those-little-dots-are-on-the-edges-of-your-c-1791075995

There's a paragraph in there that drew my attention relative to our problem:

"UPDATE: An engineer with Pittsburgh Glass Works contacted me to point out another, more important purpose for the dots! He told me that Windshields are bent in a hot oven (like the one seen here), and that, because the frit band is black, it tends to heat up faster than the transparent glass. A sharp thermal gradient between the frit and the clear glass can cause optical distortion, or “lensing,” so faded dots are used to help create a more even temperature distribution, minimizing this distortion (and also hiding it from view)."

I don't recall seeing faded dots on any Model X I've seen. Perhaps this is contributing to the problem.

 

[mikevbf]

Got it. Sorry. I still don't know how to gauge a 1-5 rating either. Terrible to one person might be what I have. To another person it might be so many images that you can't tell which one is the real car. So there's a lot of variability. I get three images (real image, ghosted image, and a faint ghost above that), and when headlights approach me in the other lane, the first ghosted image is well above the roof of the car.

I am the one that asked the 1 to 5 rating not as a general scale for people to compare their experiences. I asked for the rating from someone who tinted their windshield to get a sense for how much their experience of ghosting improved from before they tinted their windshield. As a tool for comparisons between different peoples experience, i tend to agree with ohmman that it is less useful.

 

[outie]

I have a worse problem than ghosting on my windshield.

This is what my windshield looks like after parking in the rain for an hour. I didn't take picture of the other cars but they all had even water beads.

My windshield is full of these contaminants. It's only visible when I put water on it and wipe or during the (heavier) rain. It's especially worse at night because of glares from the defects in the rain. It's not visible during the sunny days.

 

[Terapin]

I got my Model X in late December. Right away, I noticed a distortion - wrinkle, ripple, waviness - in the driver's visual field. I also noticed the ghosting maybe a 2-3 severity. Mostly on LED lights.
I took the car to the Service Center and the Service Adviser saw the distortion right away and said we'll get you a new windshield. (I never mentioned ghosting)
They ordered the windshield and I took the car in a week or so later. They had the wrong windshield. Since my car had HW2 sensors, they had to re-order the windshield to get the right one. I mention this because I believe it to be an example of the current 'state of the art'.
They installed it last week. No distortion but still ghosting, severity 2-3.

Thanks! I will mention it because it *is* distracting, and frankly, ought to be addressed. I'm not sure how obvious it will be to other people, but making right turns it is quite obvious to me as my eyes have to scan that part of the windshield actively.

 

[FURY]

When I had a Model X order pending, I planned, having seen the primary, secondary and tertiary imaging through several recent Model X front windshields, to test the ordered vehicle, prior to accepting it, either before astronomical dawn or after astronomical dusk.

With the above, I would have added a good dousing as well...

BTW, seems prospective buyers might want to do the above procedure as a test drive of existing vehicles in the current sale fleet, before comparing to and accepting their ordered vehicle.

This is going to have to be fixed, IMHO. The TESLA, secondary image limits of tolerance have been referred to above, but I haven't noted any TESLA comment nor do I expect an official limit of tolerance for tertiary or more imaging...

Thank you very much

FURY

 

[aesculus]

Interestingly I tried a bit of experiment tonight. I put the seat all of the way down and looked for ghosting. Saw a bit of it. Then I raised the seat all of the way up and the ghosting remained the same. I thought it would have gotten worse.

At this point I would not take a replacement windshield even if they offered it because it's not that noticeable to me and I think whatever they did to replace it, they would break something else.

 

[EV-lutioin]

This, if you have correctly extracted it (as I'll take for granted), is of utmost importance:




I've read - not hyper-carefully but better than skimming - through this thread's 800 posts and my belief is most posters have little to no experience in or knowledge of refractive physics. That is by no means an indictment, but....


...to the extent that neither Tesla's design/engineering team nor, worse yet, the optical engineers at AGP Glass properly have anticipated the refractive aberrations inherent in such a raked windshield is a very large miss, indeed.

Any test that passes its light perpendicularly through the test glass is utterly useless at best, and deceptive to the point of being dangerous at worst.

The first time I drove X Audie Orationem Meam in the dark, a few days ago, the dreaded refractions are indeed there. I've made a point out of not telling Jenny; I'm going to use this as an experiment to learn how long it takes her to notice them.

There should be a relatively easy fix, using just the right optic coating to re-refract the image from air // glass // standard-safety-stuff-if-present // glass // air. The potential problems I quickly can come up with include:

• de novo cost
• retrofit cost
• ability for any exterior coating to stand up specifically to wiper action
• color distortion <===this likely is not a big issue; microscopy, camera, telescope & binocular lenses all are nigh-perfect after many decades of research and innovations here

Any interior coating is less susceptible because of the more protected environment.

The basics are simple: the incident of light refraction is a function of the different refractive indices (duh) of different media. Atmospheric air (to consider that as a unique substance, which of course it is not but let it pass) has one such index; windshield glass another. Assume there to be just those two substances: "air" and "glass". Light passes from air to glass and gets refracted ("bent") as a result of the difference of those indices; upon passing out of the glass and back into air it is refracted again.

All well and good....actually, all poor and bad....BUT in that visible light is itself composed of a spectrum of wavelengths, different wavelengths ( = "colors", as all of you well know) refract at different angles.

ALL this needs be accounted for and rectified; in the case of the Model X windshield, the angle at which the driver and the windshield interact must also be accounted. This is where the magic of coatings comes in. Today's coating substances go a long, long way toward correcting these refractions. There is a lot more to the problem - internal reflections, birefringence, inhomogenties - but all can be solved to a great degree - far greater than what we presently are seeing in, through, and of our Model X windshields.

Many of us have noticed that polarized sunglasses eliminate the secondary image separation caused by refraction. As I understand it, polarization is a layer that 'filters' the spectral wavelengths and thereby limits refraction. I am wondering why Tesla does not include a polarized layer in their windshields to prevent refraction? Is it due to cost or because polarization limits light transmittance and would make the windshield too dark for night driving? Additionally I am wondering if we can add our own polarized layer in the form of some sort of film installed inside the windshield as some have mentioned in this thread. And lastly, are there any light colored polarized glasses that we could wear to in our fancy electric cars while driving at night?

 

[BlackSheep]

Let us know if the new windshield fixes the issue. I have a feeling I'm going to have to complain and complain until they decide to replace the windshield.

Nope. Still ghosts. It's only noticeable to me at night, and I mostly ignore it, but it's still aggravating that it persists.

 

[vandacca]

Many of us have noticed that polarized sunglasses eliminate the secondary image separation caused by refraction. As I understand it, polarization is a layer that 'filters' the spectral wavelengths and thereby limits refraction. I am wondering why Tesla does not include a polarized layer in their windshields to prevent refraction? Is it due to cost or because polarization limits light transmittance and would make the windshield too dark for night driving? Additionally I am wondering if we can add our own polarized layer in the form of some sort of film installed inside the windshield as some have mentioned in this thread. And lastly, are there any light colored polarized glasses that we could wear to in our fancy electric cars while driving at night?

A Polarized Filter Layer will filter out all light travelling in a particular orientation (eg. horizontal), which is approximately half the light reaching the windshield. It will remove the ghosting effect, but it will also limit the amount of light passing through the windshield, effectively tinting it.

Works great during the day, but at night it would be too dark. All polarized driving glasses are the same way, effectively they block out a big portion of light and wouldn't be a good option for night driving.

 

[stefan.bc]

This is what my windshield looks like after parking in the rain for an hour. I didn't take picture of the other cars but they all had even water beads.

I initially thought it was from the leafs in the tree. Did you remove those contaminats, how?

 

[outie]

I initially thought it was from the leafs in the tree. Did you remove those contaminats, how?

No, I have not been able to remove any of it. I already tried clay bar with no success. Waiting for SC to get back to me. I am guessing this will need a new windshield eventually.

 

[stefan.bc]

Are there any MXs out there that don't have the ghosting issues?

 

[jgrgnt]

I have a worse problem than ghosting on my windshield.

This is what my windshield looks like after parking in the rain for an hour. I didn't take picture of the other cars but they all had even water beads.

View attachment 213622

Saw this on my overnight loaner. Driving in the rain, especially at night, was challenging. It reminded me of the residue left behind by monroney stickers on the inside of my previous cars. In those cases, the residue eventually went away. Seems like whatever is on the glass of the Model X is more permanent, though I hope not.

 

[Lysol]

No, I have not been able to remove any of it. I already tried clay bar with no success. Waiting for SC to get back to me. I am guessing this will need a new windshield eventually.

Could goo gone work?

 

[outie]

Could goo gone work?

Nope. I have tried that as well. This thing will not get off at all. There's no sign of it getting loose after constant cleaning / pressure. It's definitely on the exterior as it's affecting the wiper performance. It's really bad during heavy rain at night because of the glares produced by these smudges.

 

[Scmbug]

This, if you have correctly extracted it (as I'll take for granted), is of utmost importance:




I've read - not hyper-carefully but better than skimming - through this thread's 800 posts and my belief is most posters have little to no experience in or knowledge of refractive physics. That is by no means an indictment, but....


...to the extent that neither Tesla's design/engineering team nor, worse yet, the optical engineers at AGP Glass properly have anticipated the refractive aberrations inherent in such a raked windshield is a very large miss, indeed.

Any test that passes its light perpendicularly through the test glass is utterly useless at best, and deceptive to the point of being dangerous at worst.

The first time I drove X Audie Orationem Meam in the dark, a few days ago, the dreaded refractions are indeed there. I've made a point out of not telling Jenny; I'm going to use this as an experiment to learn how long it takes her to notice them.

There should be a relatively easy fix, using just the right optic coating to re-refract the image from air // glass // standard-safety-stuff-if-present // glass // air. The potential problems I quickly can come up with include:

• de novo cost
• retrofit cost
• ability for any exterior coating to stand up specifically to wiper action
• color distortion <===this likely is not a big issue; microscopy, camera, telescope & binocular lenses all are nigh-perfect after many decades of research and innovations here

Any interior coating is less susceptible because of the more protected environment.

The basics are simple: the incident of light refraction is a function of the different refractive indices (duh) of different media. Atmospheric air (to consider that as a unique substance, which of course it is not but let it pass) has one such index; windshield glass another. Assume there to be just those two substances: "air" and "glass". Light passes from air to glass and gets refracted ("bent") as a result of the difference of those indices; upon passing out of the glass and back into air it is refracted again.

All well and good....actually, all poor and bad....BUT in that visible light is itself composed of a spectrum of wavelengths, different wavelengths ( = "colors", as all of you well know) refract at different angles.

ALL this needs be accounted for and rectified; in the case of the Model X windshield, the angle at which the driver and the windshield interact must also be accounted. This is where the magic of coatings comes in. Today's coating substances go a long, long way toward correcting these refractions. There is a lot more to the problem - internal reflections, birefringence, inhomogenties - but all can be solved to a great degree - far greater than what we presently are seeing in, through, and of our Model X windshields.

I do have a physics background, and these are my thoughts exactly. I think the problem gets more complex when you look at the laws in different states here in the US. For example, here in California it is illegal to have any sort of tint on the windshield. I have no idea, but suspect, this would mean they could not apply any sort of thin film coating to the interior or exterior of the windshield either. I haven't read the actual law, but my hunch is that nothing can be applied to the windshield. As a result, the glass manufacturer would need to incorporate the thin film coatings in the glass manufacturing to greatly reduce the extra light refractions.

I call my SC regularly asking for an update for this problem, as I've had multiple people from the SC drive my car and notice the problem, but they always respond that there is nothing new.. Maybe there is a way for a group of us to group together and take this to someone higher up at corporate?

 

[vandacca]

I see no reason why Tesla or the windshield manufacturer couldn't add a very thin non-reflecting coating. It should help a great deal and could be tuned to a particular wavelength. For example, it could be tuned around the wavelength of red light (tail lights) to eliminate it completely and less so for the remaining spectrum. Or it could be tuned for middle of spectrum to get a general improvement across the whole spectrum.

 

[arijaycomet]

Here is a photo of the laser test the service center performed on my MX a couple days ago. Keep in mind that my MX has severe ghosting. If my MX is "normal" I can't imagine how bad it would have to be to miss the target. This is very frustrating.

"Here is the pic from seating in your Model X. The alignment stand is placed at a set distance away and hight. The center of the target is a LED light that is projected on the windshield and the image in the ring is the ghost. If it is in the ring it is considered normal."


View attachment 211954

Just wanted to update this thread with another person who had the SAME TEST done here in Cleveland, Ohio. Just picked up a 2016 CPO X75D (fairly early vin # 0087xx) ... and I had almost identical results to you here. They let me sit in the X and look at it, didn't bother to take a photo as I wasn't sure how well it would come out. My dot was up and to the right -- about half way between the center light and the outer ring.

My issue is that basically this test PROVES there is a double-vision ghosting problem--- but simply shows that it falls within parameters that what, Tesla says is okay? Then again I've read this thread, I get that there is some reasonable range of acceptable. But I've had my fair share of vehicles and have never seen anything quite like this.

Guess we just have to wait and see if Tesla decides to do anything else -- but something tells me this test is going to "pass" everyone!

 

[EV-lutioin]

Just wanted to update this thread with another person who had the SAME TEST done here in Cleveland, Ohio. Just picked up a 2016 CPO X75D (fairly early vin # 0087xx) ... and I had almost identical results to you here. They let me sit in the X and look at it, didn't bother to take a photo as I wasn't sure how well it would come out. My dot was up and to the right -- about half way between the center light and the outer ring.

My issue is that basically this test PROVES there is a double-vision ghosting problem--- but simply shows that it falls within parameters that what, Tesla says is okay? Then again I've read this thread, I get that there is some reasonable range of acceptable. But I've had my fair share of vehicles and have never seen anything quite like this.

Guess we just have to wait and see if Tesla decides to do anything else -- but something tells me this test is going to "pass" everyone!

As I explained to Tesla, maybe the level of ghosting is within the rules (although I don't think we should necessarily take Tesla's word for it), but a Toyota Yaris is also within safety standards yet that does not make it a safe car. I explained that we don't buy Tesla cars to be barely "within tolerance" or to meet minimum safety standards, we bought their cars because they exceed the standards or are a least as good as similarly priced conventional cars. This sort of cop out by Tesla contradicts the mantra for which we have all become fans. In the end, this seems like a silly spat with their loyal customers that they will later regret. Windshield ghosting at the level we are experiencing is not acceptable and we should not have to suffer it.

 

[Duckjybe]

No, I have not been able to remove any of it. I already tried clay bar with no success. Waiting for SC to get back to me. I am guessing this will need a new windshield eventually.

Are you trying to fuel the fire or something? This has nothing to do with the ghosting issue. All X's exhibit this on the tinted part of the windows (including falcon wing door sun roof glass) when water has beaded due to the rain. It is not a residue. When the water is wiped away the color goes away.