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Elon Musk deletes twitter posts about P85D/85D efficiency increases

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Someone always does complain. That's a fact and as valid a point as any, particularly when the original complaint is phrased: If Tesla had done this, then all would be fine in the world. Because that's simply not true. What is far more accurate is: If Tesla had done this instead of that, then *I* would be happy in this moment. There are plenty of people who aren't the least bit upset about their P85D car.

Of course. But my point was, "someone will always complain" is still misleading. Not all actions (or inactions) produce equal amounts of disgruntled people. We should strive for actions that minimize complaints. :)

I hope you don't mind me saying, but there seems to be some on this forum who are very sensitive to perceiving Tesla being attacked. Quickly suspicious, yet seemingly always in Tesla's benefit. I have gathered that certain history on this forum is behind this, perhaps humanely very understandable reactions too. I am not unsympathetic to the past, nor to the underdog status Tesla has and some identify with - even myself to an extent, living in a market where driving a Tesla or an EV is really pioneering still. But I think people would do well to be wary of getting "panties tied in a knot" (to quote you) over Tesla criticism either. It doesn't do anyone good to be over-suspicious of fellow-posters, yet be under-suspicious of anything Tesla does. In reality we should suspect both *and* give leeway to both as well. That's the objective way.

But if you're of the mind to go all public on Tesla and think that's the best way to go about it, then why mess around on an enthusiast forum at all? Why not go for the throat and post on their FB page, or Tweet Elon directly? That's a couple million people worth of exposure.

Probably because very few people are actually on any such mission to go "all public". People come here looking for support from their peers - and have a reasonable expectation of people at Tesla reading too, as a bonus. Think of the recent case of smoke in the cabin after supercharging. That kind of stuff is a hard discussion to have, when a part of the delegation were quick to focus on questioning the poster and homing in on the mods made to the car, without offering any reason why those might be the cause, even Tesla's reference to the mods sounded unspecific. Some even felt duped because the poster didn't mention the mods immediately, perhaps fast suspecting the poster had a malicious intent, instead of talking about what could cause this, if anything.

To me it seemed like it got quite emotional quite fast, with little regard to the possibility that the poster had a real safety worry with their car. It became the third degree instead. A very likely possibility is, the poster probably just wanted untainted experiences, had anyone gone through something similar. The minute the mods came up, the entire discussion died down because it became easy to dismiss everything as "the mods did it", so it feels like he had some reason to be wary of such reactions. I would say that thread had too little scepticism in the Tesla direction and a bit too much towards the poster and his mods. In that case the poster also already had contacted Tesla and came here, when they felt stonewalled there. Clearly places like this serve a purpose and, at their best, can provide helpful answers too. I mean, it isn't the first time in the history of the world that a car manufacturer's repairs end unsatisfactorily and deserve an online hashing over what to do next to move forwards. Most people just want solutions, they don't want ambulance chasing or fifteen minutes of fame.

All this said, I don't doubt misinformation gets posted both intentionally and unintentionally. I'm rooting for a balance, that's all. There is bogus info coming out of members and from Tesla, mostly unintentionally on both sides probably. Sometimes it feels critical to Tesla posts - or posts that seem like they could escalate into critical - get a fairly rough handling. In my opinion we would do good to worry equally about community members' and Tesla's fair treatment, not just over one or the other. :)

As for is the feedback helping, is Tesla changing? I don't know, but I do think where successful dialogue ensues, posters get something out of it that helps them get informed, cope, vent. I would like to think such team spirit also has some leverage when reaching out to Tesla, if nothing else in helping hash the issues out prior to discussing them with Tesla, so that communications with Tesla can be more effective.

It is within one's ability to choose to be offended or not, regardless of intent. If you don't want to enjoy your awesome car, then don't. It's your right. If you want to be offended by me wanting you to be less upset and more happy, and to enjoy your car while we wait for Tesla to resolve the issue, have at it. If you feel it's more rewarding to wind yourself up over and over and over again, I'm okay with that too. Seriously.

Well, as we have been going tit-for-that, I am not really offended by anything at the moment - all this is fair game, your comment there included. I will think about it. In reverse, I do think mine too was a genuinely helpful-meaning suggestion. Perhaps try not ask people to "go enjoy the car" if you get such urge, see if skipping produces better results comms-wise. :) At least give it some thought sometime. It truly sounds pretty dismissive to me, even when qualified with "not dismissing" afterwards.

As for my Tesla the car, I'm very happy with it, thank you. ;) The company could communicate better.
 
How many P85D's have been delivered until today, and how many objective reports are there about diminished range?

These are the very first batch of P85D production cars coming out of the factory, with a significantly different drivetrain, especially in the front. We are comparing the efficiency (the hardest part to get right) of these first cars with the efficiency of calibrated and continuously tweaked and improved (and probably well worn in) prototype cars on which they based their efficiency numbers. Think about the amount of hours that engineers have driven in those prototype cars, tweaking and tweaking to get it right, and how many hours they spent inside the first new cars that rolled out of production.

Do you remember how much trouble there was with the early sigs wheel alignments, caster settings, batteries, etc. As an engineer, I believe it is almost impossible to get the first batch out to be perfect.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the efficiency issues are caused by slight differences from the prototype cars (be it wheel alignment settings, parts that have not yet worn in, tolerance differences, ride height differences). Add in some software that still needs tweaking, and you get where you are now.

Maybe instead of comparing a P85D's efficiency with a well worn in P85 that had 3 realignments, drive train and battery changes and 10 software upgrades, lets compare it with an early sig with SW version 1 and see how it fairs then in the efficiency department...
And trust Tesla to do the necessary to improve the car just like they did on the S85s and P85s until it surpasses the numbers they have measured with their prototype cars.

And yeah, Tesla really needs to figure out how to do communication so that customers stay happy during this unavoidable period of improving first series production cars...
 
We know that Elon Musk knows about the range. Can we give the man and his crew some time to resolve it with a firmware update that adds in 'normal' mode? Yep, I understand many were expecting to receive their cars with normal mode already available. None of us knows what happened there.

They've had nearly a month to reply to the public consternation on the issue starting with the first pictures of the P85D window sticker (at least I recall it was early December that showed up). Other than the tweet Tesla has said pretty much nothing on the subject (I'm sure some employees have replied to some people privately to various degrees). Even the tweet felt forced by complaints. I recall posts talking about customers (including a certain famous one) going to the service center to complain about this performance in the days leading up to the tweet. Yet here we are with the only public response to the issue now deleted.

I've got no issue with them taking time to provide the fix. But some public communication that isn't deleted and that sits on a blog is warranted. I say this as someone who has an 85D on order and would like to know what happened with the P85D range since I'm now questioning if I should believe the range that's currently listed for the 85D. The delay in providing an accounting for what happened (not a solution or even an explanation of the coming solution) is eroding my trust.

Yes I have voiced my concerns to Tesla.
 
I've read all the threads. Who are these 'too many people' dismissing your concerns as not valid? I didn't see any of that. I have seen people suggest that now that you've voiced those concerns, give Tesla a chance to address them by being patient. What's done is done. It can't be changed. So, constructively moving forward is the best way to continue, no?

All of us here know why the next gen seats aren't in all the new cars. That was entirely out of Tesla's hands, they don't control Port Authorities, truckers, or the weather and many forget that the reason the first set of seats didn't get put in cars was because they didn't have a perfect 5* rating. Tesla deemed if they didn't have a 5* rating, they weren't good enough for their customers. They didn't tell you that. Yep, I know. Everyone who wants the new seats will get them. Remember Tesla does not make the seats, they come from a seat supplier. In the meantime, everyone has got perfectly good, safe seats with which to drive their cars and carry passengers. Right? So, get out there and enjoy those awesome cars!

We know that Elon Musk knows about the range. Can we give the man and his crew some time to resolve it with a firmware update that adds in 'normal' mode? Yep, I understand many were expecting to receive their cars with normal mode already available. None of us knows what happened there. Some automatically want to think nefarious thoughts, when it might be something like a bug was found at the last moment, or they weren't 100 percent happy with the drive quality and didn't want to send it out that way, or, or, or. Yep, I understand you aren't happy about it. Yep, I understand Tesla isn't saying at this point. Presumably you've made your discontent known to the proper people within Tesla. While you're waiting for resolution, enjoy your awesome car.

I don't believe anyone has ever said that Tesla is perfect. Tesla is a group of fallible people, like you and me. Doing the best they can, like you and me. None of this post is a dismissal of your concerns.

Like! I am sure the complaints have been heard. Now give Tesla a chance to reply...
 
Seems like there are two camps that agree on one thing. The first is somewhat angry and upset about range and the other acknowledges the issue and points to patience as a virtue to let TM work through this. Neither disagree that it is a problem. I have been driving this car for a while like I was carrying a scolding hot cup of coffee between my legs, and I don't think there is a hope of getting to the 242/250 rating currently advertised (let alone the previous much higher rating that was silently dropped from the advertising with no notice to those that purchased under those conditions). I sit between the two camps - I do certainly feel misled but understand the nature of their development cycles and do expect "some form" of solution in the coming months. No one can be happy that they got less than TM promised - I didn't get a discount, so Im expecting them to do their part (eventually) just like the due bill for the seats.

The car is great - no doubt. The range is a problem - whether you need it charged more frequently or worse, can't see yourself making it through an unforeseen commute...the bottom line is the usefulness of the car is less while this remains an issue. Now, besides TM clearly needing a new media and communications team, Im curious about the camp that points to patience. With the early releases of the car, have their been updates to optimize the range? Moreover, has the range been over promised and under delivered in the past in such a major way before? Mr Musk first tweeting and then deleting is a big concern...not sure how to wrap my head around that (I know its the origin of this thread).
 
They've had nearly a month to reply to the public consternation on the issue starting with the first pictures of the P85D window sticker (at least I recall it was early December that showed up). Other than the tweet Tesla has said pretty much nothing on the subject (I'm sure some employees have replied to some people privately to various degrees). Even the tweet felt forced by complaints. I recall posts talking about customers (including a certain famous one) going to the service center to complain about this performance in the days leading up to the tweet. Yet here we are with the only public response to the issue now deleted.

I've got no issue with them taking time to provide the fix. But some public communication that isn't deleted and that sits on a blog is warranted. I say this as someone who has an 85D on order and would like to know what happened with the P85D range since I'm now questioning if I should believe the range that's currently listed for the 85D. The delay in providing an accounting for what happened (not a solution or even an explanation of the coming solution) is eroding my trust.

Yes I have voiced my concerns to Tesla.

if i were you, i'd assume, based on well evidenced history, that the 85d range is, at most, similar to the 85, and likely a bit less.
 
Seems like there are two camps that agree on one thing. The first is somewhat angry and upset about range and the other acknowledges the issue and points to patience as a virtue to let TM work through this. Neither disagree that it is a problem. I have been driving this car for a while like I was carrying a scolding hot cup of coffee between my legs, and I don't think there is a hope of getting to the 242/250 rating currently advertised (let alone the previous much higher rating that was silently dropped from the advertising with no notice to those that purchased under those conditions).

I am in the second camp, and expect them to deliver on the 242/250 EPA rating in the future. I don't see any inconsistency between those numbers and 285 miles at a constant 65 mph. I also view all of those numbers the same way I view the 300 miles of Ideal range that was first announced for the S 85 before it had an EPA rating and still exists in the software to this day. All of these are numbers that are theoretically possibly, but I don't expect to achieve them in real world driving conditions. However none of them are even theoretically possible with today's P85D firmware, so I'm waiting for Tesla to fulfill its promise through an update. I plan to take delivery of my P85D in February even if they haven't shipped the update by then.
 
if i were you, i'd assume, based on well evidenced history, that the 85d range is, at most, similar to the 85, and likely a bit less.

And what history is that?

Go back and watch the "D" event video. Elon clearly states that they are NOT DONE optimizing the dual motor software, and that it will improve in a number of ways, over the coming months.

There is a good reason that the 85D is taking longer to get out, and I am sure that optimizing the range is one of those reasons. If on April 1 the 85D is a not EPA rated for higher range than the S85, you can call me a fool. I will even come over to Vancouver so you can call me a fool to my face.

Some of us have been working with Tesla a wee bit longer than others, and we have ACTUAL history going back 5-6 years that informs our confidence.
 
And what history is that?

Go back and watch the "D" event video. Elon clearly states that they are NOT DONE optimizing the dual motor software, and that it will improve in a number of ways, over the coming months.

There is a good reason that the 85D is taking longer to get out, and I am sure that optimizing the range is one of those reasons. If on April 1 the 85D is a not EPA rated for higher range than the S85, you can call me a fool. I will even come over to Vancouver so you can call me a fool to my face.

Some of us have been working with Tesla a wee bit longer than others, and we have ACTUAL history going back 5-6 years that informs our confidence.

As the appeal to authority or seniority seems a recurring theme, hopefully nobody minds a comment about that. It is of course true that sometimes prior knowledge and historical information are invaluable. At other times they may be a hinderance that limits views. It is hard to say which is which, at any given time, since past action is never a guarantee of future performance either. I would not dismiss the concerns of a newcomer, anymore than I would of an old hat, but assess each on the merits - not on the seniority.

A lot of people, to varying degrees, seem to agree this is one more in a long line of PR blunders by Tesla. At the very least they should communicate better. I think it is fair to say, historically, Tesla has been bad at this and continues to be. It is not just that the buying public is irritable, Tesla too clearly has dropped that ball many times. Now, for the engineering side the past view is kinder, I agree. There is reason to expect Tesla to keep iterating and improving and making such changes available to existing vehicles - an industry unstandard Tesla practice, for which rightfully we should applaud them.

Tesla's public information gave no reason to expect such significant lackings in P85D range. No matter some attempts to sugarcoat it, it simply is not supported by what was heard from Tesla before they started backtracking. That is a PR mistake (and continues to be with the missteps like disappearing tweets and silence), hopefully not intentional misleading, possibly an engineering mistake (at least scheduling wise) and it is an issue with the whole sales contract as well, because money and product already exchanged hands. So, there are many aspects which people comment on. People agree on some, disagree on others. It is a multi-faceted issue.

It may well be that people familiar with Tesla have good reason to be confident the range gets fixed. I, too, expect the range to get better after future updates. But, equally, people familiar with Tesla have good reason to think Tesla is making the same mistakes over and over again when it comes to launching half-finished or late products and communicating badly about them. The "fix as you go, release as you get ready" mentality doesn't work very well if silence or confusing comms is constantly eroding trust. That, too, seems to be a Tesla legacy. I'm not sure it is one they would like to have. Tesla probably needs to be even more open if they wish to sell product in such an unconventional manner.

Improving communications would be the easy fix, as a starters. I must admit by now I feel the decision to stay silent is starting to look like an attempt to contain the issue, rather than just being busy with the fix. That, in itself, isn't the image I'm hoping Tesla to project. Hopefully they hear and improve soon, so that some goodwill and trust isn't lost.

I doubt any of us who frequent this place want Tesla to be hurt, quite the contrary. Same we want for Tesla customers and owners, of course. We just differ in our opinions on how to best help Tesla - and Tesla customers - to avoid such hurt.
 
1. Tesla often lets their enthusiasm get ahead of their communication skills. It's almost a given that when Elon tweets, he's basing them on the cars that are in the prototype stage with the very latest alpha enhancements rather than what's in production. The only way to fix this is to stop announcing things--but then no one will get excited and Tesla will become just like every other car manufacturer. I'd hate to see that happen.

2. In six to nine months this will be another solved problem, and we'll move on to the next issue (and there's zero doubt there will be a next issue).

3. It's a problem in the mean time--just like the excessive tire wear was a major problem.
 
1. Tesla often lets their enthusiasm get ahead of their communication skills. It's almost a given that when Elon tweets, he's basing them on the cars that are in the prototype stage with the very latest alpha enhancements rather than what's in production. The only way to fix this is to stop announcing things--but then no one will get excited and Tesla will become just like every other car manufacturer. I'd hate to see that happen.

Why would or should it be an either-or kind of thing, though? The only way to fix this isn't to stop announcing things, the other way to fix it is by improving the communications. At least two ways spring to mind, if Elon would as enthusiastically communicate corrections to past mistakes and misunderstandings, that would be helpful in setting the record straight faster. Or if Elon would stop announcing things prematurely and start announcing them at a better time, all things considered, that too would help. Neither scenario would require to stop communicating.

It sounds a bit odd to suggest the only way Tesla and/or Elon could communicate is the current one and the only alternative would be silence.

Silence, of course, can also be a differentiator. In tech Apple and Steve Jobs used it to great effect. Perhaps a little less great in the Tim Cook era. But I'm not suggesting Tesla should imitate Apple, they should have their own flare and style. That flare and style can remain, even if they adjust to fix the issues their communications are currently having. Tesla can be an even more awesome company.
 
I don't know if it makes any of y'all feel better but I noticed he also deleted this reply:

screen-shot-2014-12-23-at-11-56-24-am-624x436.png


Note, you can see replies here: Tweets with replies by Elon Musk (@elonmusk) | Twitter
(and see that it is no longer there)
 
I have an ongoing email thread with Jerome and just asked him again, point blank, whether the 285 miles @ 65 mph claim was valid. His response was to point to the EPA numbers, 242 with 21s and 250 with 19s, and says these numbers are being released by the EPA soon.
Easy follow-up would be to point out that 285@65 is still listed in Norway and Canada at least.
 
1. Tesla often lets their enthusiasm get ahead of their communication skills. It's almost a given that when Elon tweets, he's basing them on the cars that are in the prototype stage with the very latest alpha enhancements rather than what's in production. The only way to fix this is to stop announcing things--but then no one will get excited and Tesla will become just like every other car manufacturer. I'd hate to see that happen.

2. In six to nine months this will be another solved problem, and we'll move on to the next issue (and there's zero doubt there will be a next issue).

3. It's a problem in the mean time--just like the excessive tire wear was a major problem.

The CHAdeMO adapter was supposedly to be ready by December ... 2013. It's still only in beta, because, well we _think_ it's compatibility issues but we don't know because Tesla isn't saying.
Version 6 of the firmware was supposed to be released last January and have more in it that it did. No more mention of real-time weather-based route planning.
The Model X was supposed to be released, er, I can't remember now, and it's been sliding at least 1 month every quarter.
AutoPilot/Driver Assist is being sold, but it has two pretty useless features that are easy to include because nobody's really going to care if they don't work well. Adaptive cruise, which is what people really want, has to work well and that's just under development.
Dual motor was sold with the claim of it helping efficiency, but right now we only have the P85D which is less efficient than the P85 was, and by the way, they're still working on the efficiency thing, and there are no 85Ds being delivered and we don't even know whether the 85D will actually be delivered with better efficiency than the 85.

The problem is not that he's tweeting about stuff, it's how he's tweeting, selling stuff that's really just in development as if it's ready, or nearly ready, and it's not only not nearly ready, it's not even guaranteed to be released. If he stuck to treating Tesla development work as development work, avoided expression of certainty on dates, and then gave progress updates and reasons for delays Tesla would still be a cool company, doing cool stuff and they could still get people to pay to get on waiting lists for items, but at least people on the list would know what they're getting into.

Maybe all of this will come together when the Model X With AutoPilot and CHAdeMO adapter is released.
 
The CHAdeMO adapter was supposedly to be ready by December ... 2013. It's still only in beta, because, well we _think_ it's compatibility issues but we don't know because Tesla isn't saying.
Version 6 of the firmware was supposed to be released last January and have more in it that it did. No more mention of real-time weather-based route planning.
The Model X was supposed to be released, er, I can't remember now, and it's been sliding at least 1 month every quarter.
AutoPilot/Driver Assist is being sold, but it has two pretty useless features that are easy to include because nobody's really going to care if they don't work well. Adaptive cruise, which is what people really want, has to work well and that's just under development.
Dual motor was sold with the claim of it helping efficiency, but right now we only have the P85D which is less efficient than the P85 was, and by the way, they're still working on the efficiency thing, and there are no 85Ds being delivered and we don't even know whether the 85D will actually be delivered with better efficiency than the 85.

The problem is not that he's tweeting about stuff, it's how he's tweeting, selling stuff that's really just in development as if it's ready, or nearly ready, and it's not only not nearly ready, it's not even guaranteed to be released. If he stuck to treating Tesla development work as development work, avoided expression of certainty on dates, and then gave progress updates and reasons for delays Tesla would still be a cool company, doing cool stuff and they could still get people to pay to get on waiting lists for items, but at least people on the list would know what they're getting into.

Maybe all of this will come together when the Model X With AutoPilot and CHAdeMO adapter is released.

You forgot to mention the center console, but that would just add insult to injury.

Your post is spot on and says all of the things I have been thinking. When I bought the Model S, enthusiasts encouraged me by saying that Tesla under-promises and over-delivers. That was surely the case with the RWD cars and P85, which had tested 0-60 times that were measurably faster than Tesla's claim. Since then, and since the departure of George Blankenship, I feel that Tesla has been over-promising and under-delivering. I feel like Tesla wants us to know that they aren't standing still, and that's fine, but the way they are doing it is hurting their credibility. Personally I would appreciate less hype and more finished products. Even if that means silence from Tesla for months on end. That's okay with me. Surprises are fun and exciting, disappointment is not.

Say hello to Tesla's VP of Communications and Marketing...
Simon-Sproule.jpg


In March of this year, Tesla hired Simon Sproule away from Nissan as VP of Communications and Marketing. He started his job in April. Here we are just 8 months later and with more communications missteps by Tesla than I can remember. I believe this individual has responsibility here. What is he doing? Can anyone point to anything that this person has done to actually improve Tesla's communications? As far as I'm concerned, comms have gone downhill since he started.
 
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