FIRMWARE UPDATE! AP2 Local road driving...and holy crap

[u00mem9]

Please stop quoting the safety rate of AP1.

Seen with today's information, I suspect NHTSA is totally in the dark here that Tesla has lost the previous capability and is now deploying a different system with no way to know what new risks have been introduced.

Imagine an AP2 car is involved in a serious accident and the failure mode is one that didn't have any problem in AP1...they will rightly conclude that past performance doesn't ensure the new system is ok, and that they have made a mistake trusting Tesla.

That will quickly lead to more oversight and regulatory approval demands for any updates...at this point, it's getting hard to disagree with that.

 

[sillydriver]

Here's what bugs me ... AP1 (and I am a satisfied owner of an AP1 car) was initially advertised as an aid for "on-ramp to off-ramp" driving on limited access highways, although it had some capability to drive on local roads as long as the driver was vigilant. Why? Because limited access is an easier problem. Since then Tesla has added nags and restrictions to AP1, culminating with a 5mph-over speed limit on local roads, which makes AP1 practically useless on many of those roads. In my opinion they did so specifically to discourage its use on local roads where AP1 is less capable and less safe than it is on the highway. There is no other reason to restrict it with a 5-over limit, given that AP1 can handle highway speeds.

Now Tesla has rolled out initial software for AP2. Where does it function? Only on local roads! Not only that, but it currently doesn't work as well as AP1 does on local roads. Since I have not driven an AP2 car, i'm not sure whether it's a little bit worse on local roads than AP1, or very much worse, but reading this thread it's clearly worse in one way or the other.

Yes, I understand they are rolling AP2 out on local roads because either 1) their code is initially very inefficient, so its computational burden is high, so it can't handle the frame rate needed on limited-access highways, or 2) they are trying to create software that will ultimately handle a wider range of driving situations, so that's the reason it's currently inefficient and slow. They have a reason why they are rolling it out the way they are.

But even so, they have released AP2 software to the public that is either a little bit worse or much worse on local roads than the current AP1 release, which is itself believed by Tesla to be sufficiently unsafe on local roads that they slapped on a 5-over limit to discourage its use in that setting!

In other words, Tesla is essentially encouraging (since it is the only way it can be used) its new AP2 customers to use software in a way that is more dangerous than the AP1-on-local-roads use that they are discouraging because of its safety. I don't like to upset people when I post on this forum but frankly, words like "reckless" and "endangerment" come to mind.

I love my car and hope Tesla succeeds, but if you consider the mess that some fool watching a video player caused by hitting the side of a truck, imagine the mess Tesla will be in when an AP2 car on a local road swerves into the oncoming lane and hits head on a minivan that's carrying kids.

 

[disagree]

Unfortunately it is the most common reason I am aware of for this kind of message. I had it on my AP1 loaner I got from Tesla (no AP the entire drive to work (and I was so excited to have autosteer for highway driving at normal speeds)). Ironically, there was heavy traffic that day and I could've used my damn AP2 autosteer but instead had nothing.

Any camera based system will have this limitation and its not unique to AP2 or Tesla. It takes 1-2 minutes to fix by not blinding the camera and allowing the system to recalibrate or just not parking in the sun.

Good to know.

Alas, as you are aware, there is no sunshine today here. And even after sitting in my garage for a half an hour, AS was unavailable on my next trek out. It did reappear on the third leg of that jaunt, though. So frustrating.

 

[MP3Mike]

Curious what happens if there is a stalled truck in the same spot of a previously white-listed false alarm area.

Will AP2 plow right into it?

The signature should be different so that it doesn't match the whitelist.

 

[lunitiks]

I can't believe you took it there!

I can't believe you think I understand what you're trying to say here!

 

[electracity]

Alas, as you are aware, there is no sunshine today here. And even after sitting in my garage for a half an hour, AS was unavailable on my next trek out. It did reappear on the third leg of that jaunt, though. So frustrating.

Try posting more positive online comments and see if they turn it back on.

 

[Helmuth]

How is it that you don't understand?
that stats is meanless because it doesn't validate ap driving behavior.

IF everyone with ap2 were to activate autopilot on local roads for more than 10 seconds they would be dead.
that's a guarantee. how is that safe? why can't you look past your fandom and see this for what it is?
you come off as one of those people who will cover up things to further your bottom line.

you could careless about safety aslong as you can continue your tesla fandom.

Do you need more videos?

how about a guy who nearly died 5 times
after watching that, how clueless can u be?

I would say if you use AP 2.0 on local roads where it is recommended it works pretty good!
I drove the entire stretch of almost 4 miles/9 minutes without taking over ONCE...


I must have had over 50 lives.

 

[NerdUno]

As long as it can find it's white line, AP2 works pretty well on local roads. But when it gets disoriented by a missing line, all hell breaks lose and the car doesn't much care where it goes or what gets in its way while it tries to find its missing line.

 

[Joe F]

Here's what bugs me ... AP1 (and I am a satisfied owner of an AP1 car) was initially advertised as an aid for "on-ramp to off-ramp" driving on limited access highways, although it had some capability to drive on local roads as long as the driver was vigilant. Why? Because limited access is an easier problem. Since then Tesla has added nags and restrictions to AP1, culminating with a 5mph-over speed limit on local roads, which makes AP1 practically useless on many of those roads. In my opinion they did so specifically to discourage its use on local roads where AP1 is less capable and less safe than it is on the highway. There is no other reason to restrict it with a 5-over limit, given that AP1 can handle highway speeds.

[snip]

Now Tesla has rolled out initial software for AP2. Where does it function? Only on local roads!

Know what bugs me? People who post info about AP2 without owning or using it.

Might want to investigate a little before claiming AP2 ONLY works on local roads.

 

[drshan]

Sad that this is the closest Electrek can come to independent journalism. Someone should loan Fred Lambert a HW2 on 17.7.2.

Tesla Autopilot is currently using only 1 out 8 cameras of the new hardware suite, still very much in ‘beta’

 

[sillydriver]

Know what bugs me? People who post info about AP2 without owning or using it.

Might want to investigate a little before claiming AP2 ONLY works on local roads.

I should have phrased "local roads" as "not limited-access highways". Tesla slapped the 5-MPH limit on AP1 when not on a limited access highway because of safety. AP2 was introduced for, and currently functions only when not on a limited access highway, since all limited-access highways have speed limits higher than what the early versions of AP2 can handle. The conclusion is the same.

 

[Lawsteve]

I would say if you use AP 2.0 on local roads where it is recommended it works pretty good!
I drove the entire stretch of almost 4 miles/9 minutes without taking over ONCE...

View attachment 216713
I must have had over 50 lives.

Wow - your luck on that stretch is better than mine. I've tried it several times (difficult to not get run down only going 35 there). While performance has not been too bad, I stil have a lot of shifting within the lane and have had to take over manually several times.

Last Friday night, I tried it while driving home from a restaurant on Gandy Blvd. Turned on autosteer after I turned left onto Bayshore Blvd (for those of you not familiar with the area, it is the southern point of the route noted on the map). After about 100 yards or so, I decided the car was swerving enough to fear that a cop might stop me out of suspicion I had been drinking, and I switched back to manual mode. Guess I will try again some time when I have not had a couple of beers with my sushi dinner!

 

[Deans]

The conclusion is the same.

Many parts of the country have heavy traffic and actual highway driving speeds are much less than the posted speed limit.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I should have phrased "local roads" as "not limited-access highways". Tesla slapped the 5-MPH limit on AP1 when not on a limited access highway because of safety. AP2 was introduced for, and currently functions only when not on a limited access highway, since all limited-access highways have speed limits higher than what the early versions of AP2 can handle. The conclusion is the same.

Many parts of the country have heavy traffic and actual highway driving speeds are much less than the posted speed limit.

My AP2 car drove for about an hour on I-70 last Saturday west of Denver when I hit ski traffic. The car handled it without any problems. The average speed on this limited access highway was 5 to 15 mph at the time with occasional bursts up to 30 to 50 mph.

 

[Papafox]

Difficult to answer. While your guess is as good as any, and is logically sound, who outside of Tesla knows the real reason? Never having owned or driven an AP1 Tesla, and too many posts here to search or wade through, it's not clear to me that AP1 TACC had the same issues with overhead signs. While most AP2 are momentary brake events, a few I've had were very hard braking, to the point that if there was a vehicle tailgating, they'd wind up in your back seat. One though may have been coincident with an overhead sign while passing a car carrier. The combination of the two may have contributed to the worst panic, FCW, hard, anti lock braking event I hope to never experience again.

You should know though that it's not always overhead signs in the distance. Sometimes it seems it's seconds before going under them, and it's always been non-electronic signs in my case to date...

And the speed restriction is not really a factor when using TACC alone, unless your point is a hard braking event would be worse for following vehicles at higher speeds.

I've not driven the route on I95 South again where I've had the worst of the panic braking, but hope to again soon. Hopefully whitelisted by now.

I'm sure Tesla will get it resolved. Can't come soon enough.

Joe F, thanks for the feedback. In my AP 1.0 Tesla, I do not get the braking for overhead signs, and so I think we're seeing a more-complex solution being employed with AP 2.0, which is causing the problems. The bad news is the speed restrictions put in to reduce the seriousness of quick braking events and the quick braking events themselves. The good news is that the solution will yield a safer autopilot.

 

[Joe F]

I should have phrased "local roads" as "not limited-access highways". Tesla slapped the 5-MPH limit on AP1 when not on a limited access highway because of safety. AP2 was introduced for, and currently functions only when not on a limited access highway, since all limited-access highways have speed limits higher than what the early versions of AP2 can handle. The conclusion is the same.

My AP2 MS functions (TACC) on any road, local street, highway, limited access or not, up to the current TACC limit of 80 MPH. If what you're referring to is the Auto Steer (AS) function. AS functions up to (currently) 50 MPH on controlled-access highways.

Might help all if folks mention which aspect of AP they are speaking to specifically. TACC or AS, or both combined.

 

[Papafox]

Curious what happens if there is a stalled truck in the same spot of a previously white-listed false alarm area.

Will AP2 plow right into it?

If the truck is positioned in the same direction as the flow of traffic, the answer would be no, the autopilot would still recognize the vehicle as a vehicle and brake accordingly. If the radar hits the side of the truck facing any direction and clearly shows that the Tesla cannot pass underneath, again, the answer would be no. I suppose if you used your imagination you could come up with scenarios under a sign or overpass which could disable the braking from a distance but still pose a threat. The system will continue to evolve with time.

 

[stefan.bc]

If the truck is positioned in the same direction as the flow of traffic, the answer would be no, the autopilot would still recognize the vehicle as a vehicle and brake accordingly. If the radar hits the side of the truck facing any direction and clearly shows that the Tesla cannot pass underneath, again, the answer would be no. I suppose if you used your imagination you could come up with scenarios under a sign or overpass which could disable the braking from a distance but still pose a threat. The system will continue to evolve with time and will get better with time.

Even Tesla disagrees with you, unless they've changed their minds.

"This may not always prevent a collision entirely, but the impact speed will be dramatically reduced to the point where there are unlikely to be serious injuries to the vehicle occupants."

If you are approaching a whitelisted overpass and the traffic is stopped, you better be ready to stop the car. I don't expect this to happen at all, but who knows.

 

[Vitold]

Curious what happens if there is a stalled truck in the same spot of a previously white-listed false alarm area.

Will AP2 plow right into it?

No, because truck will give different point cloud signature than overhead sign. Of course Tesla may elect to simplify the detection if they determine that likely-hood of a disabled truck that only radar can pickup at the same location as the sign is low enough and can be ignored.

 

[u00mem9]

My AP2 car drove for about an hour on I-70 last Saturday west of Denver when I hit ski traffic. The car handled it without any problems. The average speed on this limited access highway was 5 to 15 mph at the time with occasional bursts up to 30 to 50 mph.
View attachment 216733

While that data is interesting in a way, I don't think following another car in traffic at 15mph is any indication that this road can be handled by the existing software. In my experience, following another car is the best case scenario and even roads with no lane marker are suddenly possible for successful Autopilot use.