Fernand
Active Member
I tap the screen somewhere in there, but who knows - I often get Profiles, and Sentry, and Dashcam. Sometimes I NOA to Burger King. Yum.
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First FSD Beta accident?
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
I most often get the profile.
This has to be one of the worst UI decisions - that someone who had to just take over because of FSD will be able to accurately touch a tiny button on the screen.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I've used autopilot extensively for 7 years and it NEVER takes over and does not let the driver assume control. Another good point here is that you quickly get to know what the software can and can't do well and act according. I've had 2 occasions where AP got confused in double turn lanes which required me to take over. Tesla is very clear that this is beta code. Sure hope that people who don't get that don't ruin it for those of us that do.
Tam
Well-Known Member
This is my interpretation of the complaint:
"The Vehicle was in FSD Beta mode and while taking a left turn the car went into the wrong lane and I was hit by another driver in the lane next to my lane."
FSD beta can get into the wrong lane at the wrong time so this is not a surprise to me.
"The car gave an alert 1/2 way through the turn so I tried to turn the wheel to avoid it from going into the wrong lane..."
Notice it's a "tried" not "I already turned the wheel".
My interpretation is the driver did not have the hands already on the steering wheel. Some won't touch the steering wheel until there's some warnings, alerts, or emergency and by the time the hands got back to the steering wheel, it might be too late.
"... but the car by itself took control and forced itself into the incorrect lane creating an unsafe maneuver putting everyone involved at risk..."
If the driver's hands did not grab the steering wheel on time, of course, the automation system would continue to do what was doing (in this case, automatically going to the wrong lane).
So my interpretation of the phrase:
"the car by itself took control and forced itself"
could mean that because the hands were not on the steering wheel timely, the system automatically continued to proceed with the maneuver without human timely intervention.
I've had a few instances where the car on FSD 10.5 made an unexpected hard turn of the wheel. But I just took control & cancelled the operation. That person was probably not paying attention & the car did what it wanted to an resulted in a crash.
sperkin
Active Member
My car does the same. It will cut corners on left turns and get into oncoming traffic. That side of the road usually comes in hot because they need to make a fast unprotected left turn.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Given the language in the NHTSA report, it's clear the driver was very confused about what mode their vehicle might have been in. So I think it's likely the accident happened, but not while FSD Beta was engaged.
Especially the "but the car by itself took control and forced itself into the incorrect lane" makes it sound like an emergency lane departure maneuver, which wouldn't have happened if FSD Beta was engaged.
KArnold
Active Member
If FSD was engaged here, compared to no FSD engaged (latter being driven by the highest SS), would that accident have happened either way? In this case, clearly FSD was very much a participatory activity.
If FSD has any liability, it must be an "FSD accident".
Clearly, spin. Nothing to see here.
If FSD has any liability, it must be an "FSD accident".
Clearly, spin. Nothing to see here.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
So you're saying that just by virtue of the driver having FSD Beta on their vehicle, it's an FSD accident? Because the driver could at any point mistakenly believe it's enabled? That's nonsense.
Honesty yes. If the owner thought he had fsd enabled but he actually didn’t, then the fsd beta would be a contributing factor in the crash. If he didn’t have fsd beta he wouldn’t think it was engaged.
If you have ever read any of the NTSB incidents into other accidents you would see that cause is spread far and wide. Accidents are rarely only caused by one singular issue.
I hope this is an autocorrect mistake. Otherwise it's going on /r/BoneAppleTea/
Ship it.I hope this is an autocorrect mistake. Otherwise it's going on /r/BoneAppleTea/
EVNow
Well-Known Member
We all have experienced FSD getting disengaged because we held the wheel a tad tight. So, to say someone tried to correct the steering but FSD wouldn’t allow that is difficult to believe. Just like that “no one was in the driver seat” accident was difficult to believe.
OTOH, FSD steering not sticking to lane while turning is not uncommon - though if a vehicle was actually in that lane would FSD still behave that way is debatable.
I suspect that he took over the steering but the cruise control kept the car moving forward. The driver wasn't expecting that so he interpreted it as FSD continuing to drive.
Ive had similar experiences. When I suddenly take over steering to avoid a collision and hear the disable chime I usually expect to be in full control. I am often startled to find the car is still moving on its own. I am still not used to that after more than two months with FSD beta.
Ive had similar experiences. When I suddenly take over steering to avoid a collision and hear the disable chime I usually expect to be in full control. I am often startled to find the car is still moving on its own. I am still not used to that after more than two months with FSD beta.
What worries me is that this might be, the “dual disengage” problem I have pointed out to Tesla and in posts here... in these situations you grab the steering wheel .. which disengages FSD alright, but leaves TACC engaged. And TACC, being dumb, may well cause the car to speed up if it’s not driving at set speed (likely on a corner). IMHO this is bad design.Saw this NHTSA report on Twitter:
I believe there was an accident since we have a report to the NHTSA but the details of what happened sound suspicious to me. If the driver tried to turn the wheel, it should have disengaged FSD and gone back into TACC only where the driver would be in control of steering. FSD Beta does not "by itself take control and force itself". Perhaps it was in manual mode and it was the lane departure assist that "nudged" the car, not FSD Beta? FSD Beta could have missed the turn and gone into the wrong lane and hit another car. We've seen situations like that in FSD Beta videos. Perhaps, the driver was not able to intervene in time. But I don't believe that the driver tried to take over and FSD Beta forced the car to go in the other lane anyway.
Now, I consider it more likely the guy reporting the incident was embellishing things to deflect blame (not the first to try such a thing), but I still think grabbing the wheel should disengage ALL AP functions on city streets (but not on highways).
I understand your point but don’t see it as an issue to keep TACC engaged when overriding the steering. Generally it would be more unsafe if I take over the steering from FSD / AP and the car suddenly starts slowing down because TACC is also disabled. That would mean every manual disengagement requires me to simultaneously grab the wheel / yoke and press the accelerator just the right amount to maintain my current speed.
That would be a terrible experience and result in many more accidents.
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