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FSD Beta 10.69

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Got it, unusable as usual in most scenarios, if you care about driving like a normal person.
I think you are obsessed about how a "normal" person would drive. I bet most people don't meet your definition of "normal" ;)

Except for occasional issues (and known deficiencies like roundabouts) - FSD drives like a "normal" person.
 
I think you are obsessed about how a "normal" person would drive. I bet most people don't meet your definition of "normal" ;)

Except for occasional issues (and known deficiencies like roundabouts) - FSD drives like a "normal" person.
No I am really not. There is a wide range of driving behaviors. About 5-10% of drivers that I see (roughly) are notably bad.

The rest seem pretty normal and predictable with varying levels of assertiveness. Obviously super skilled drivers are anticipatory, have fast reactions, make certain strategic & tactical moves, etc, but the vast majority of the time that doesn’t matter so I don’t notice that usually; not really a requirement for normalcy.

Humans are generally incredibly good at driving! Mad props to humans.

FSD drives like a "normal" person.

You really cannot be serious. Ask an unbiased passenger. It absolutely does not resemble human driving except (sometimes) when it is driving in a straight line at a steady speed.

You could also just watch all the videos of FSD demonstrating that it is nothing like a normal person.
 
No I am really not. There is a wide range of driving behaviors. About 5-10% of drivers that I see (roughly) are notably bad.

The rest seem pretty normal and predictable with varying levels of assertiveness. Obviously super skilled drivers are anticipatory, have fast reactions, make certain strategic moves, etc, but the vast majority of the time that doesn’t matter so I don’t notice that usually; not really a requirement for normalcy.

Humans are generally incredibly good at driving! Mad props to humans.



You really cannot be serious. Ask an unbiased passenger. It absolutely does not resemble human driving except (sometimes) when it is driving in a straight line at a steady speed.

You could also just watch all the videos of FSD demonstrating that it is nothing like a normal person.
The software has improved dramatically in recent months. AP is now to the point that friends in the car usually don't know it's turned on. One friend had a bad experience with an M3 when they were first released (2017) where AP wasn't going to brake in time in traffic. He flinched pretty hard when traffic slowed down, bracing himself - I kind of chuckled, which was rude because he was genuinely freaked out. However, the car handled it exactly as it should, and my friend relaxed a bit. He's still not sure, and prefers that I drive without AP, which I'm fine with. I think his previous experience is just something I'm going to have to ease him out of by showing it can handle things just fine now. For FSD Beta, I've taken a few friends out who also don't like how jerky it was earlier, but now comment that the turns are much smoother. One friend got into a zone talking (let's be honest, ranting) about the new Rings of Power, and forgot FSD Beta was driving. It navigated a left turn smoothly, changed lanes to the right twice, and then made a right turn smoothly, changed lanes to the left and at the next red light I reminded him that FSD just did the driving - he didn't even notice. I think because my hands are always on the wheel, sometimes people forget I'm not driving.

Again, it's not perfect, and still has issues with occasional jerky turns and planner problems (lane selection), and construction zones need some work (there is major construction near me for the last year and probably another 12 months), but it's impressive what it can do today versus 6-9 months ago.

Another disclaimer - my friends with motion sickness still don't do well with FSD, but to be fair, they get sick when humans drive too.
 
Vast majority of my disengagements right now are just due to how I feel other drivers will react to unusual driving. Otherwise it's pretty safe.

Also, 10.69.3 starting next week already? Or another intermediate version?
It would make sense for this to be .3 based on prior statements about the timeline. Just an incremental improvement hopefully on a new base version of software. Maybe they’ll bring it up to date so that they can actually make good on the promise to give it to SS 80 and above with the right hardware.
 
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that the turns are much smoother.
Yes, I keep saying that.
but it's impressive what it can do today versus 6-9 months ago.
Yes. I keep saying that. It is way, way better than a year ago! I can see it from the videos I took and posted!

But as you say makes some people uncomfortable and that’s a direct result of unnatural and jerky driving behavior.

Anyway it’s all consistent. Drives nothing like a normal person. Needs a lot of improvement before it has utility.
 
Anyway it’s all consistent. Drives nothing like a normal person. Needs a lot of improvement before it has utility.

I'll give you that it doesn't drive like I do. But I've definitely had Uber drivers that drove worse than FSD Beta does on multiple occasions.

Are you often the passenger in someone else's car? Or are you primarily a driver? If you're only ever a driver, I wonder if you just don't like being a passenger while FSD Beta drives.
 
Are you often the passenger in someone else's car? Or are you primarily a driver? If you're only ever a driver, I wonder if you just don't like being a passenger while FSD Beta drives.

Not too often but recently I was in a car with someone else driving for hours. It was fine. Relaxed, looked at my phone, etc. No weird jerking. A little bit of bracing when zooming around corners on gravel roads. Normal pavement, no worries.

Basically fine with other people driving.

I’m not a passenger when FSD Beta is on. I’m the driver (and driving!).
 
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Obviously super skilled drivers are anticipatory
Perhaps FSD Beta is intentionally "not normal" in certain situations because it's been explicitly trained and programmed to avoid certain types of accidents "normal" humans get into. For example, relatively slow to enter a green light could be because Tesla's fleet data shows it's much safer that way to anticipate a potential red light runner. Or slowing down when an adjacent vehicle stops before a crosswalk is being extra safe to anticipate a potentially occluded pedestrian. Or extra caution for curves just in case oncoming traffic might cross over the center line.

Yes there are also plenty of odd FSD Beta behaviors are just clearly wrong and confusing to others, but some "not normal" behaviors could actually be for safety.
 
Yes there are also plenty of odd FSD Beta behaviors are just clearly wrong and confusing to others, but some "not normal" behaviors could actually be for safety.
Some of them could be. I don’t really see that sort of behavior often though.
I see:
Jerky behavior around flashing yellows.
Poor vehicle placement on left turns
Inability to pick correct lane.
Inconsistent ability to stop smoothly.
Inability to anticipate traffic controls.
Occasional inability to determine correct drivable space in specific places like this right turn it jerks out of/towards the solid white line on the right about 50 feet before turning, and then gets back in the right place, not sure why. Been doing it for many versions, slightly better on 10.69.2
Follows too closely.



Or extra caution for curves just in case oncoming traffic might cross over the center line.
Sure. Doesn’t do this though in my experience. Just cruises around corners at excessive speed at dawn when animals are about; does not seem to understand the risk, of course.

Regarding green light, still working hard to test FSD beta against my special case protected left turn intersection where running the red is routine (people just don’t see the light for some reason associated with the design of the intersection - even after repainting the crosswalks!). We’ll see, just a matter of time. In any case FSD should have excellent vision so proceeding slowly at an intersection when first in line seems unnecessary. It should be even better than a human at identifying hazard crossing vehicles (it’s not very difficult to do this as a human at most intersections!).
 
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If every single car on the road were driven by 2.3, would these things happen. The irony is by the end of this year, we'll be more afraid of how humans react to / drive around fsd beta than fsd beta itself:

My first drive today on 69.2.3, it tried to do #2 on your video. Tried a California lane change last second across 2 lanes, lane next was clear, lane across had a minivan occluded from its view. It rocketed across both lanes, intervention required to prevent the exact sideswipe scenario in #2 of that video (Not quite as fast in forward travel but extremely aggressive sidewards travel).

While I’ve only had FSDb for a couple weeks, most of my drives have seen me intervene at almost every decision point (anywhere it needs to make a decision, usually intersections). 20% for safety, 80% to make it actually go before those behind me start honking. It freezes mid turn, fails to signal, and just generally sits there with a line of cars waiting their turn at the intersection.

My first and only drive today on 69.2.3, it was 50/50. Literally half of the intersections I encountered, it tried to bend metal. The other half I had to intervene or disengage to keep rural Alberta Cummins drivers from approaching my (paralyzed with indecision) car with their shotgun in hand.

It has not been a flattering 2 weeks. Maybe this is better in SoCal, but in rural Alberta, it’s a disaster. I’m on the brink of emailing them to opt out, and I went in expecting it not to be good. What I’ve received is downright ridiculous. I keep telling myself I should give it until V11, but patience (mine and those around me) is wearing thin…
 
My first drive today on 69.2.3, it tried to do #2 on your video. Tried a California lane change last second across 2 lanes, lane next was clear, lane across had a minivan occluded from its view. It rocketed across both lanes, intervention required to prevent the exact sideswipe scenario in #2 of that video (Not quite as fast in forward travel but extremely aggressive sidewards travel).

While I’ve only had FSDb for a couple weeks, most of my drives have seen me intervene at almost every decision point (anywhere it needs to make a decision, usually intersections). 20% for safety, 80% to make it actually go before those behind me start honking. It freezes mid turn, fails to signal, and just generally sits there with a line of cars waiting their turn at the intersection.

My first and only drive today on 69.2.3, it was 50/50. Literally half of the intersections I encountered, it tried to bend metal. The other half I had to intervene or disengage to keep rural Alberta Cummins drivers from approaching my (paralyzed with indecision) car with their shotgun in hand.

It has not been a flattering 2 weeks. Maybe this is better in SoCal, but in rural Alberta, it’s a disaster. I’m on the brink of emailing them to opt out, and I went in expecting it not to be good. What I’ve received is downright ridiculous. I keep telling myself I should give it until V11, but patience (mine and those around me) is wearing thin…
Make sure you email from the same address as your Tesla account is linked to. Email fsdbeta @ tesla.com and list your VIN and that you want to be removed from FSD Beta.
 
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Make sure you email from the same address as your Tesla account is linked to. Email fsdbeta @ tesla.com and list your VIN and that you want to be removed from FSD Beta.
If I make that decision, yes I will.

I have already emailed a detailed description of my issues to the team, and I am making liberal use of the report button. I DO want this to work. It’s simply not at a level yet where I live to be on the roads. And I am not the only one who thinks this, everyone I know in my area with FSDb agrees. It’s not ready for beta yet.
 
My first drive today on 69.2.3, it tried to do #2 on your video. Tried a California lane change last second across 2 lanes, lane next was clear, lane across had a minivan occluded from its view. It rocketed across both lanes, intervention required to prevent the exact sideswipe scenario in #2 of that video (Not quite as fast in forward travel but extremely aggressive sidewards travel).

While I’ve only had FSDb for a couple weeks, most of my drives have seen me intervene at almost every decision point (anywhere it needs to make a decision, usually intersections). 20% for safety, 80% to make it actually go before those behind me start honking. It freezes mid turn, fails to signal, and just generally sits there with a line of cars waiting their turn at the intersection.

My first and only drive today on 69.2.3, it was 50/50. Literally half of the intersections I encountered, it tried to bend metal. The other half I had to intervene or disengage to keep rural Alberta Cummins drivers from approaching my (paralyzed with indecision) car with their shotgun in hand.

It has not been a flattering 2 weeks. Maybe this is better in SoCal, but in rural Alberta, it’s a disaster. I’m on the brink of emailing them to opt out, and I went in expecting it not to be good. What I’ve received is downright ridiculous. I keep telling myself I should give it until V11, but patience (mine and those around me) is wearing thin…
And this is what I don't get. I'm chugging around Central New Jersey, home of interstates, unstriped hilly local roads, flat striped roads, four lane divided highways with people whizzing around at 50-60 mph (excluding the speeders, who are faster), weird lane routing, and all that jazz.

When taking local roads to work, there's maybe 20-25 turns; when taking the interstates, it's more like 10. At the moment, it's 3-10 interventions on the local path, two or three on the interstate. Long stretches of no interventions. That's an average.

On good days, local roads, I've had just two. On good days, interstates, also about two. On bad days, it's 20 and 8. So: Variable. Lots. And, I swear, it's Not Just Traffic.

Sometimes I think it's chaos theory, where a butterfly flapping its wings in the Philippians can cause North Easters in New England two weeks later. Or not. I've guessed that maybe Tesla has been changing parameters on the FSD-b fleet in order to collect lots of different data for analysis and update. Or maybe there's a smidgen of self-training built into the car. But it's just weird.

Several months ago on the first day I ran FSD-b on the 10.xx release from the local school parking lot, it was like, Just How Bad Can It Get? Turned left out of the parking lot rather than the correct right direction, so traveling exactly opposite to the destination. Then, as the road (with stripes!) curved around to the right, it went straight at full speed into a dead-end development. At which point I disengaged, did a K-turn to get turned around to the correct direction (yeah, that bad), and drove home.

Funny thing, it wasn't that bad after that. And now, with 69.2.3, it's getting suspiciously relaxing. I mean, it does consistently do stupid things, like swinging wide right on a left turn (!), but so long as one isn't doing that, it's almost OK. Not good for prime time, but you can see there from here. And I'm not seeing metal benders like you guys describe.

It's just weird.
 
DrChaos,

Please check me on this. I am reading that the human eye has about 5 degrees of foveal field of view with a resolution of .02 to .03 degrees. Also I've read that Tesla's front facing camera has a field of view of 35 degrees. If 1280 pixels cover 35 degrees, that is .025 degrees per pixel. If this is correct, the resolution of that Tesla camera is roughly the same as a human eye.

SW

Yes, it does seem like the fixed front narrow camera might be good enough but not the wider cameras. Still, human retinas and CCD cameras encode very differently. It sure seems from experience that an aware human, even though their clock speed is 100 Hz vs gigahertz, is able to notice and identify sooner than the AI.

Also I think the lack of stereoscopic vision is a potential deficiency, getting physical distances from parallax up close would alleviate lots of software burden and give ground truth which can be used to train the nets for estimation in the far distance.

Full around high resolution cameras plus imaging radar could give suprahuman perception at least at the raw level.
 
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Yes, it does seem like the fixed front narrow camera might be good enough but not the wider cameras. Still, human retinas and CCD cameras encode very differently. It sure seems from experience that an aware human, even though their clock speed is 100 Hz vs gigahertz, is able to notice and identify sooner than the AI.

Also I think the lack of stereoscopic vision is a potential deficiency, getting physical distances from parallax up close would alleviate lots of software burden and give ground truth which can be used to train the nets for estimation in the far distance.

Full around high resolution cameras plus imaging radar could give suprahuman perception at least at the raw level.
I don’t work in software but I think I remember them mentioning in some presentation that FSD is capable of depth perception using some algorithm my monkey brain will never be able to understand.
 
On 69.2.2. A couple new situations for me.

1. On inside lane of 40 MPH road, 2 lanes each way. Motorcycle in parking lot to my left started an aggressive and legal right turn to inside lane going the other direction as I approach. Our paths clearly will not cross. FSDb was on the binders and I didn't get an opportunity to see what was on the screen. I'm sure it felt like we were about to collide somehow.

2. This actually happened twice to me today. Approaching UPL at stoplight with oncoming traffic. FSDb chose an opening I was comfortable with and started the turn. But very, very slowly. There is more oncoming traffic but we are committed to the turn. Had to goose the electron pedal to stay clear. On 2 different turns.

Maybe common but new to me
 
These days, they say words are violence.

One MD offers up a Second Opinion, the other says no, Follow the Science!

So here, it seems, we have Doc on Doc violence:
A Surgical Strike, as it were...or even worse, a shocking lack of Professional Courtesy.
This is obviously a dispute to be resolved by the "Medical Bored", based on recomendations from the Centers for Deceleration Control.
Right you are. I must have been especially grouchy that day. I apologize, sorry about that Sleepydoc. The truth is you are correct, Sir. So here are my own subjective, incomplete, and anecdotal experiences. On my 150-mile commute the day after my post, I timed dialed slowing on NOA, TACC on and off the highway, and FSD-b off the highway. NOA and TACC were close to the same but FSD-b off highway was on average 2-3 seconds slower per 5 mph dialed-in speed decrease. For me a clearly noticeable difference. I had no occurrence to observe the difference in NOA vs FSD-b city slowing rates based only on speed limit changes. There is subjectivity here but at least in my rudimentary observations, the differences seem obvious. Of course, I'm not sure why this matters and I would probably prefer the slower slowing at lower speeds. The Law enforcement hiding-in-wait argument seems pretty thin, however. If LE is hiding and tracking your slowing as a few seconds off you have a problem with LE. That said I live in Montana. We don't have laws in Montana. No seriously, for much of Montana's history, there have been no strict speed limits. That's only partially true but........
 
The Law enforcement hiding-in-wait argument seems pretty thin, however. If LE is hiding and tracking your slowing as a few seconds off you have a problem with LE.
Haha, please tell that to the peace officer who was waiting at my local speed zone the other day. If I had let FSDb slow down at the pace it wanted to (even when I rolled it down well before the speed zone), I’d be paying a ticket.

But then again, this is a Canada, and we don’t have real crime here, so police need something to do I guess 🤷‍♂️😂