FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[WilliamG]

Dude... it's the SAME page today just they moved one of the features from coming to here.

And left the same NOT AUTONOMOUS warning.

Because that applies to ALL the features listed... both existing and coming.

No it’s not the same wording. For accuracy maybe use the latest page and not a years-old one? If you look at the updated page, it’s a backtracked verbiage:

Coming Soon​

1. Autosteer on city streets

That’s quite a bit different to what it used to say, which was “automatic driving on city streets.” “Autosteer” sounds like bare minimum crap, which, you know, it is currently.

And this is classic Tesla. They pulled this baloney with the 200mph for Plaid requiring just wheels and tires. And they also pulled this with Active Noise Cancelling turning into Active Road Noise Reduction (and it doesn’t work at all).

 

[Knightshade]

Get Tesla to push me the Junk version that can drive like that, with me being hands free. That’s what was advertised.

Can you point out where in the video it was advertised THAT was what was being sold at the time.... versus demoing what they hoped a future version could do?

If they removed the nags, fsdb could do exactly what you see in that video today BTW. Folks have posted exactly those sorts of 0 intervention drives sped up a ton.

I think you might be too old in comparison to me, and we might just not be working on the same frequencies.

I note you've gone from attacking who was flying longer, upon discovering it's actually me, to attacking my age.

What'd be great is if you could attack the actual topic, but you seem to have little of substance to offer there.

 

[drtimhill]

That’s not a great argument (plus a tad rude). This isn’t about me. It’s about a product that is not currently and never will be (on HW3/4) what it was promised to be.

No, the point is your arguments all come down to:

1. I cannot use or am not comfortable using FSDb.
2. Therefore, no-one else can be either.
3. Therefore, FSDb is dangerous/inadequate.

But you cannot extrapolate from #1 to #2, any more than I can claim that you MUST be comfortable using it just because I am.

 

[Knightshade]

No it’s not the same wording. For accuracy maybe use the latest page and not a years-old one?

I literally included a screen shot from today.

If you look at the updated page, it’s a backtracked verbiage:

Coming Soon​

1. Autosteer on city streets

That’s quite a bit different to what it used to say, which was “automatic driving on city streets.” “Autosteer” sounds like bare minimum crap, which, you know, it is currently.

There's no legal definition for either term.

Instead they switched to using a more consistent term, since autosteer was a term already in use for tesla features, while "automatic driving" was not defined in any way.

 

[drtimhill]

Considering that the final stable version is very unlikely to happen in our current cars lifetimes, in my opinion, the beta is THE only thing someone could use to recoup SOMETHING from their monetary investment into the Junk.

Again, see my previous post. You are extrapolating from your personal expectations/needs to those of others.

 

[Ramphex]

Can you point out where in the video it was advertised THAT was what was being sold at the time.... versus demoing what they hoped a future version could do?

If they removed the nags, fsdb could do exactly what you see in that video today BTW. Folks have posted exactly those sorts of 0 intervention drives sped up a ton.





I note you've gone from attacking who was flying longer, upon discovering it's actually me, to attacking my age.

What'd be great is if you could attack the actual topic, but you seem to have little of substance to offer there.

I’m not attacking your age, I’m simply saying we’re in different age groups and we don’t see things eye to eye so there’s no point of any further discussion. You read everything way too literally and I find it annoying. Are there two pilots flying aircraft that are certified for two pilot operations? YES. Are they both holding the damn yokes at the same time? NO. Your logic and thought process is ridiculous.

 

[Ramphex]

Again, see my previous post. You are extrapolating from your personal expectations/needs to those of others.

Isn’t that what we’re here to do? Share PERSONAL experiences? Clearly I can’t share YOUR experiences of driving with FSDj on, and if it’s good to you, then that’s awesome. To me it does not. (moderator edit)

If you want to come join me for a ride one day, feel free. There’s a chance that I might hate it and you might love it, everyone has a different preference and opinion. I don’t understand why when we share our negative opinions we get crucified as if we are only allowed to share positive experiences.

 

[WilliamG]

Let’s all agree FSDj is amazing. It’s really amazing. And when it’s out of beta this year and driving everyone around with just a little supervision on very rare occasions, - and parking by the curb like a normal driver does or parking in my garage successfully like I do every day, we’ll all celebrate.

Robotaxi profits are going to be off the charts for us! Looking forward to it. Coming this year. Definitely this year. 100%. You read it here first.

 

[Knightshade]

I’m not attacking your age, I’m simply saying we’re in different age groups and we don’t see things eye to eye so there’s no point of any further discussion. You read everything way too literally and I find it annoying. Are there two pilots flying aircraft that are certified for two pilot operations? YES. Are they both holding the damn yokes at the same time? NO. Your logic and thought process is ridiculous.

Except when using FSD both the human and the driving computer are holding the yoke at the same time.

Hence why you comparing that to having a spare human sitting around hands off as backup/relief was such a terrible analogy.

If you don't like folks pointing out your analogies suck, make better analogies.

 

[Ramphex]

Let’s all agree FSDj is amazing. It’s really amazing. And when it’s out of beta this year and driving everyone around with just a little supervision on very rare occasions, - and parking by the curb like a normal driver does or parking in my garage successfully like I do every day, we’ll all celebrate.

Robotaxi profits are going to be off the charts for us! Looking forward to it. Coming this year. Definitely this year. 100%. You read it here first.

The fact that it took 60 seconds to park my car with scrubbing the tires left right left right left right and backing up like 3 times just to adjust to back into a spot WITH NO OTHER CARS AROUND is ridiculous to me.

Mean while the others are just like “hey man it did what it was supposed to do.” I would love to be these people’s contractor, just go to their house and half ass everything, then ask for payment. They don’t care about quality as long as “hey man I did what I had to do.”

 

[Knightshade]

The fact that it took 60 seconds to park my car with scrubbing the tires left right left right left right and backing up like 3 times just to adjust to back into a spot WITH NO OTHER CARS AROUND is ridiculous to me.

Sure.

But it's not a safety issue.

And the recent debate was all around safety.

So it was a weird video to toss in there.

Just as your other 2 were since they also didn't show any dangerous/unsafe behavior.

Mean while the others are just like “hey man it did what it was supposed to do.” I would love to be these people’s contractor, just go to their house and half ass everything, then ask for payment. They don’t care about quality as long as “hey man I did what I had to do.”

But in this case the quality isn't even the problem- just how long it took.

If painters say it'll be 2 days to paint your house, and it's 4, and the house is properly painted, you still owe them for the job.

FWIW though you might've found ONE place where the S/X vs 3/Y really does matter.

When I've had loaner Ses I found em huge boats that were a PITA to park compared to my 3... I guess FSD thinks so too.

My 3 autoparks quicker than your video shows your S doing it.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Get Tesla to push me the Junk version that can drive like that, with me being hands free. That’s what was advertised.

Note: while there are no hands, you can clearly see the left thigh/knee is pressed against the wheel to prevent nags. At times it actually looks like the left hand is pushing the knee into the wheel.

 

[WilliamG]

The fact that it took 60 seconds to park my car with scrubbing the tires left right left right left right and backing up like 3 times just to adjust to back into a spot WITH NO OTHER CARS AROUND is ridiculous to me.

Mean while the others are just like “hey man it did what it was supposed to do.” I would love to be these people’s contractor, just go to their house and half ass everything, then ask for payment. They don’t care about quality as long as “hey man I did what I had to do.”

That really is pretty funny. Meanwhile, my neighbor’s 2016 VW Alltrack with… cough… parking sensors/front and rear RADAR can parallel park so fast it’s hilarious. If you didn’t have to shift gears yourself I’d guess it’s 3x as quick as the Tesla at the maneuver. And yes, that makes it safer as it’s not stuck in the middle of the road as long.

But anyway, back to FSDj being the best. Because it is.

 

[Ramphex]

Except when using FSD both the human and the driving computer are holding the yoke at the same time.

Hence why you comparing that to having a spare human sitting around hands off as backup/relief was such a terrible analogy.

If you don't like folks pointing out your analogies suck, make better analogies.

It’s your comprehension of my analogies, that over analyzes them, and takes them too literally, then argues the semantics.

Yes, having a second person while driving would be safer. Use rally racing for example. They don’t need to have two steering wheels and two sets of pedals. Yes flying with two pilots is also safer, regardless of who’s holding the yoke. My list was literally a list of random things that are “safer”. Random Snapple facts that do not matter. Just like the fact that “driving with FSD is safer”… TO ME… does NOT matter. It’s a useless trophy that YOU are willing to give it.

I have spent 13 years driving emergency vehicles in inclement weather up north, on opposite sides of the road, on shoulders, in between splitting traffic, and so on, I do not doubt my ability to drive safely. I do indeed doubt the software’s current state decision making, and allowing it to drive requires me to constantly supervise something I could easily just do myself. My decisions to me are predictable, FSD’s are unpredictable. If FSD was marketed as a driver assist that will require constant cabin camera supervision and a steering wheel nag, I wouldn’t have purchased it.

 

[drtimhill]

Isn’t that what we’re here to do? Share PERSONAL experiences? Clearly I can’t share YOUR experiences of driving with FSDj on, and if it’s good to you, then that’s awesome. To me it sucks donkey balls.

If you want to come join me for a ride one day, feel free. There’s a chance that I might hate it and you might love it, everyone has a different preference and opinion. I don’t understand why when we share our negative opinions we get crucified as if we are only allowed to share positive experiences.

Again, you are missing my point. Sure, share your personal experiences, good and bad, and your opinions, good and bad. 100% behind that. But if you look through this thread there are many cases of using those personal (subjective) opinions and presenting them in absolute (objective) terms. THAT is when things get dubious, since such extrapolations are often fallacious and can lead others into thinking something has more validity than is actually has.

 

[Ramphex]

Sure.

But it's not a safety issue.

And the recent debate was all around safety.

So it was a weird video to toss in there.

Just as your other 2 were since they also didn't show any dangerous/unsafe behavior.




But in this case the quality isn't even the problem- just how long it took.

If painters say it'll be 2 days to paint your house, and it's 4, and the house is properly painted, you still owe them for the job.

FWIW though you might've found ONE place where the S/X vs 3/Y really does matter.

When I've had loaner Ses I found em huge boats that were a PITA to park compared to my 3... I guess FSD thinks so too.

My 3 autoparks quicker than your video shows your S doing it.

I also never argued it being any sort of safety issue. I just posted a video and said it sucks. Just like if the painters half assed the paint job, I would say it sucks. Is it unsafe for me to live in a house that’s painted like crap with paint splatter, different shades in different areas, paint running down in multiple areas… no… but it doesn’t mean that the paint job is great and “does what it’s supposed to do”

 

[Ramphex]

Again, you are missing my point. Sure, share your personal experiences, good and bad, and your opinions, good and bad. 100% behind that. But if you look through this thread there are many cases of using those personal (subjective) opinions and presenting them in absolute (objective) terms. THAT is when things get dubious, since such extrapolations are often fallacious and can lead others into thinking something has more validity than is actually has.

That works both ways for the good experiences and the bad experiences. Do I have some decent experiences with the Junk driving? Sure. Unfortunately, when it comes up to a 4 way intersection, turns on a right blinker, and goes straight across…. That is just not okay. Normal people do not do that. That sort of behavior will never earn a participation trophy from me and will instead contribute to me calling it…. Junk.

 

[drtimhill]

I’m not attacking your age, I’m simply saying we’re in different age groups and we don’t see things eye to eye so there’s no point of any further discussion. You read everything way too literally and I find it annoying. Are there two pilots flying aircraft that are certified for two pilot operations? YES. Are they both holding the damn yokes at the same time? NO. Your logic and thought process is ridiculous.

In fact KS made a valid point, your analogy didn't work. I dont find that ridiculous, and certainly has nothing to do with age group.

 

[Supcom]

11.4.3 push going out.

 

[Ramphex]

In fact KS made a valid point, your analogy didn't work. I dont find that ridiculous, and certainly has nothing to do with age group.

The only thing is, none of those were analogies. It was a list of other useless fun facts of what is “safer”