FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[Knightshade]

Nhtsa raining on our parade again. If Tesla has to limit the speed to the speed limit, fsdb might as well be dead.

I mentioned quite some time ago you can be 100% sure that any version of FSD operating at L3 or higher (ie the car is doing the DDT) will be hardcoded to never exceed a posted speed limit.

And further pointed out every state in the US that allows L3 or higher already explicitly includes in their rules the system must obey all laws- which would include speed limits.


Yet somehow people keep being mad and surprised at this all being true.

Humans can choose to speed while driving. Cars that are actually driving won't be allowed to.

 

[JulienW]

I didn’t know we had 362,758 vehicles on the same version FSD beta.

....and I thought I was the only one on V11.4.

 

[powertoold]

And further pointed out every state in the US that allows L3 or higher already explicitly includes in their rules the system must obey all laws- which would include speed limits.

That's a separate topic, and maybe I'm wrong, but speed limits are a gray area in traffic laws.

 

[Supcom]

At this point, it just seems like nhtsa is nitpicking about preferential issues. If the car doesn't adjust to the speed limit fast enough it's a problem, if it's too fast, it's also a problem. Nhtsa is just imposing their preference on this. I know some people prefer faster adjustment, I'm perfectly fine with how it is right now. Majority of drivers (anecdotal) don't make fast adjustments to decreasing speed limits. It's the same thing with rolling stops. 1% of drivers I've ever seen actually stop to 0-1mph with no cars around.

When the cars enters a lower speed zone, as in entering a rural town city limits, the car takes way too long to slow to the reduced speed. I believe this is the speed limit issue. Same goes for when the driver dials the speed way down.

 

[Supcom]

That's a separate topic, and maybe I'm wrong, but speed limits are a gray area in traffic laws.

If the issue was to prevent the car from ever exceeding the speed limit, then all Teslas would need to be recalled.

 

[powertoold]

When the cars enters a lower speed zone, as in entering a rural town city limits, the car takes way too long to slow to the reduced speed. I believe this is the speed limit issue. Same goes for when the driver dials the speed way down.

I know, I went through many instances of this on my Oregon coast road trip. Fsdb slowed down appropriately (no slower than other cars around me) through all the small towns. I passed through about 12 small towns this way.

Most human drivers slow down very gradually in these cases. And if it's really important, the town would put a traffic light or something near the edge of the town.

If it's not slowing down fast enough, the driver always can disengage.... That the whole point of level 2 right.

 

[powertoold]

If the issue was to prevent the car from ever exceeding the speed limit, then all Teslas would need to be recalled.

True but normal AP limits speed on city streets to 5mph above I think.

 

[tivoboy]

I hope we somehow don’t get an update that eliminates the ability for the user/driver to ADD / INCREASE speed ABOVE a posted speed while using / engaging FSDb on ether urban or highway roads… that would truly s..k..

I’d have to go back to AP/EAP with TACC for sure.

 

[oliphant428]

I know some people prefer faster adjustment, I'm perfectly fine with how it is right now. Majority of drivers (anecdotal) don't make fast adjustments to decreasing speed limits.

No. It shouldn't take the vehicle half a mile to slow down from 55 to 35, for example. I frequently force a disengagement due to this so I don't run the risk of getting stopped for speeding. It's quite ridiculous how long this has been this way. I really like how aggressive regular AP is with responding to speed changes, detected or user-defined.

 

[powertoold]

No. It shouldn't take the vehicle half a mile to slow down from 55 to 35, for example.

I think that's appropriate, I doubt other drivers are doing it in less. Maybe I'm myopic driving mostly in California.

Basically when you say 55mph, I'm assuming people drive 60+, and 35mph, most people are driving 40-45.

 

[oliphant428]

Basically when you say 55mph, I'm assuming people drive 60+, and 35mph, most people are driving 40-45.

Sure. 60 down to 40... same thing. My vehicle takes quite a long time to do this with FSD beta enabled. Standard AP does it very well.

 

[oliphant428]

I hope we somehow don’t get an update that eliminates the ability for the user/driver to ADD / INCREASE speed ABOVE a posted speed while using / engaging FSDb on ether urban or highway roads… that would truly s..k..

I’d have to go back to AP/EAP with TACC for sure.

Thankfully that's not what NHTSA is requesting to be changed. This is rare, but I agree with NHTSA on this "recall". The speed change thing (along with everything else mentioned) is so horrid and should not exist.

 

[powertoold]

Sure. 60 down to 40... same thing. My vehicle takes quite a long time to do this with FSD beta enabled. Standard AP does it very well.

It's funny because if it does it too fast, people will complain about "phantom braking"

 

[Knightshade]

That's a separate topic, and maybe I'm wrong, but speed limits are a gray area in traffic laws.

You are wrong.

Speed limits are not a gray area. If they were they'd be called speed suggestions.

There's a common myth that it's ok to speed if going with the flow of traffic, but this is entirely unsupported by the actual law.

 

[powertoold]

You are wrong.

Speed limits are not a gray area. If they were they'd be called speed suggestions.

There's a common myth that it's ok to speed if going with the flow of traffic, but this is entirely unsupported by the actual law.

They are a gray area in terms of enforcement. This is like arguing semantics. Enforcement is all that matters when it comes to matters of law. Without enforcement, the law is meaningless.

 

[LincolnsDoctor]

It's funny because if it does it too fast, people will complain about "phantom braking"

Where I am there are lots of road that go from 55 and safe to drive at 65 to 35 and not safe to drive much faster, i.e. from rural roads with good shoulders to narrow roads in small towns with lots of parked cars, pedestrians, traffic, etc. Not safe to slow down gradually. Autopilot slows down at the correct rate in these situations

 

[Supcom]

And if it's really important, the town would put a traffic light or something near the edge of the town.

Traffic lights reduce speeding ticket revenue.

 

[Knightshade]

They are a gray area in terms of enforcement. This is like arguing semantics. Enforcement is all that matters when it comes to matters of law. Without enforcement, the law is meaningless.

Except that this isn't "will the cop put down his donuts to pull me over today"

This is your car company is selling illegal vehicles if they are capable of performing the DDT and speeding. There is no gray area there.


That's a pretty massive difference in legal liability you seem to be hand waiving away as "semantics" when it's really not.

 

[sleepydoc]

At this point, it just seems like nhtsa is nitpicking about preferential issues. If the car doesn't adjust to the speed limit fast enough it's a problem, if it's too fast, it's also a problem. Nhtsa is just imposing their preference on this. I know some people prefer faster adjustment, I'm perfectly fine with how it is right now. Majority of drivers (anecdotal) don't make fast adjustments to decreasing speed limits. It's the same thing with rolling stops. 1% of drivers I've ever seen actually stop to 0-1mph with no cars around.

When the cars enters a lower speed zone, as in entering a rural town city limits, the car takes way too long to slow to the reduced speed. I believe this is the speed limit issue. Same goes for when the driver dials the speed way down.

This.

I know, I went through many instances of this on my Oregon coast road trip. Fsdb slowed down appropriately (no slower than other cars around me) through all the small towns. I passed through about 12 small towns this way.

Most human drivers slow down very gradually in these cases. And if it's really important, the town would put a traffic light or something near the edge of the town.

If it's not slowing down fast enough, the driver always can disengage.... That the whole point of level 2 right.

Categorically false. FSD is not just slow because it’s ‘coasting,’ it will actually apply energy to the motors to keep from slowing down, and ¼ - ½ mile is *far* too long. The law states you are required to be driving at the posted speed limit at the sign, not ½ mile after it.

 

[DarkForest]

I think that's appropriate, I doubt other drivers are doing it in less. Maybe I'm myopic driving mostly in California.

Basically when you say 55mph, I'm assuming people drive 60+, and 35mph, most people are driving 40-45.

Really depends on the area. On my drives, there are some roads where the very gradual deceleration for a lower speed limit perfectly matches what the rest of traffic is doing. There are other roads where that same deceleration would make some speed trap cop’s day, so I disengage to slow down myself and then re-engage FSD when my speed is good.

I live in a small town in Texas. 55 mph means 50-55 mph, sometimes 20 mph if we’re driving behind a farm tractor which happens regularly.

I’ve legit been yelled at by someone on the side of the road for “speeding” when going 20 mph in a 30 mph. There were no children nearby or any other reason to be going slow other than that’s how people drive here.