FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[Dennisis]

Well, being from NY and a lifelong Yankee fan, I figure you get what you get for living in Boston.

 

[Ramphex]

When a man loves a woman…

There’s a socket…..

 

[uscbucsfan]

There’s a socket…..

Just wanted to say that your contributions are the best part of this thread.

That's all.

 

[Knightshade]

Since L3+ will adhere to the legal traffic laws, and is advancing rapidly, one of two things needs to change. Either L3 needs to be regulated in such a way to allow it to break traffic laws, or the limits will need to be increased substantially where traffic routinely breaks it. The third option is to modify driving culture to accept limits, which seems unlikely.

Third option doesn't require "modifying" anything.

People who like to speed can either learn to accept the increasingly large % of self driving cars that obey the limits- or they can not learn and be mad about it while those cars STILL just obey the limits. The robots won't care which they pick.

 

[JulienW]

Not sure but will post it here for curiosity.

Experiencing a strange phenomenon. I’m still on 69.25 but seem to be experiencing some 11.x behavior. While most could be attributed to subjective or anecdotal experience (the way it seems to be handing double parked vehicles for instance) there is one example that seems to offer proof of a change. Since I got Beta (original 10.2) I have tried a route that makes a left turn from 16th St onto West Peachtree St and then must cross 5 lanes in about ½ a block to make a right on Arts Center Way. 100% of the time it has always turned into the first or sometimes 2ed left lane. It has NEVER been able to change 5 lanes to turn onto Arts Center Way (see video of behavior).

However since 11.2 was released (I’m still on 69.25) my can now turns into the far right or 2ed to the right lane (like a human) and NOW makes the turn 100% of the time. How is this coincidence and change in lane picking behavior possible?

 

[Dewg]

Not sure but will post it here for curiosity.

Experiencing a strange phenomenon. I’m still on 69.25 but seem to be experiencing some 11.x behavior. While most could be attributed to subjective or anecdotal experience (the way it seems to be handing double parked vehicles for instance) there is one example that seems to offer proof of a change. Since I got Beta (original 10.2) I have tried a route that makes a left turn from 16th St onto West Peachtree St and then must cross 5 lanes in about ½ a block to make a right on Arts Center Way. 100% of the time it has always turned into the first or sometimes 2ed left lane. It has NEVER been able to change 5 lanes to turn onto Arts Center Way (see video of behavior).

However since 11.2 was released (I’m still on 69.25) my can now turns into the far right or 2ed to the right lane (like a human) and NOW makes the turn 100% of the time. How is this coincidence and change in lane picking behavior possible?

I had a similar turn yesterday, but chalked it up to enabling Beta while sitting at a red light, assuming it needed to turn wide. It turned left to the far right lane instead of its usual turning into the far left lane and then lane changing to the right. I'll have to see if I can reproduce it.

 

[jebinc]

You are correct of course. 69.25 was an improvement on this lovely roadway but 11.3.3 has been a regression. All in all 11.3.3 has been the best upgrade I've had by far even with it's occasional wonky decisions.

Wonderful….

 

[JulienW]

I had a similar turn yesterday, but chalked it up to enabling Beta while sitting at a red light, assuming it needed to turn wide. It turned left to the far right lane instead of its usual turning into the far left lane and then lane changing to the right. I'll have to see if I can reproduce it.

I’ll add a more anecdotal that blew my mind yesterday that seems beyond 10.69.25. Was driving down Peachtree St (yes the Peachtree mean is real) in heavy traffic. Was in the far right lane and was approaching a red light with backed up traffic. All 4 lanes about the same. In mine a UPS truck. As getting closer the light turned green and traffic started moving. My lane hadn’t started moving yet but only a couple of seconds. My car turned on the signal and made an aggressive left lane change in heavy traffic about 50’ before reaching the UPS truck. As it was happening I realized the UPS truck was double parked and no traffic in front of it. This was about a full second after my car had identified it and I would have been cut off and had to wait a few second had I been driving.

 

[Gilliland]

To me it seems like an extension of "mob mentality", which is the psychological notion that doing something wrong is okay if others are doing it too. One guy decides to drive 65 in a 45 zone, and as long as a few others join him, it's suddenly safe to drive 65 as that's the flow of traffic at that moment. My question is: why is the speed limit on that street 45? There must be a reason, like its proximity to residential streets where pedestrian traffic is probable. Or blind intersections where slower cars might be merging onto the street. Or perhaps there is a statistical history of collisions on that street, so the limit was set to reduce injury.

Yes, it seems likely that there is a reason for the limit that was selected. It may or may not have been a good reason, but I'm sure one exists.
But when you are driving on that road, you can only control your own speed, not anyone elses. So from that standpoint, even if it would be safer for everyone to go 45, that's not what they are doing.

if everyone else is going 65 and you try to go 45, YOU are the one who is creating a hazard. Even if 45 is a safer choice overall, it's not a very safe choice in that situation. I don't know that anyone "official" would ever give that his or her stamp of approval, but common sense says that it is true.

Off-topic: A friend told me that he was once worried about having to drive in Rome, Italy. But then he considered that he had learned to drive in Boston, so he had nothing to worry about. He said it would be like playing baseball against a team from Norway.

 

[swedge]

Has anyone figured out how they are rolling out new releases? Is it just random selection at this point?

I have been in beta since the Safety score rollout, and used to get the new releases usually the day off. It does not seem like they are prioritizing "older" beta testers anymore (or wonder if it is still based on safety data internally which would make sense since I drive like a maniac after I got in beta).

Im also not talking about the set couple hundred YouTubers and that get the first releases every time, but more like how are they deciding who are these first 35% or so they did the second wave on.

I suspect they are doing it randomly.

In addition to feedback from users, Tesla is collecting data on miles driven on FSD and on accidents. Assuming fewer accidents and fatalities occur per mile on FSD than the national averages, regulators and detractors will be deterred from calling for restrictions. Quashing or slowing FSD development would provably result in more accidents, and so are not reasonable actions to advocate or litigate.

When Safety Score was used as a qualification, this data was arguably not representative of average drivers. By using random selection now, the data is probably more representative.

A similar issue was discussed when Tesla compared AutoPilot accident rates with national averages. It was argued that AutoPilot only worked on highways, where accidents rates are lower than is cities. FSD will help Tesla make more accurate comparisons across the board.

So, like I told another poster, if we haven't been given 11.3.3 yet, it may be because we are not being random enough. ;-)

 

[PVia]

Apologies for taking it off topic. I'll disagree with your point that having a mechanism for allowing posting of enforceable limits, when enforcing those limits is illegal, seems pointless.

I think that if there were no speed limits, it would be chaos out there. It would be a total free-for-all. It would be taken as a license to drive however and whatever.

 

[PVia]

I've been rear ended three times for stopping at a red light. All three people said that they assumed that I would run the red light. (Maybe those people were Boston transplants...)

That's absolutely insane...traffic here in SoCal is ridiculous but I don't ever see people running red lights.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

Not sure but will post it here for curiosity.

Experiencing a strange phenomenon. I’m still on 69.25 but seem to be experiencing some 11.x behavior. While most could be attributed to subjective or anecdotal experience (the way it seems to be handing double parked vehicles for instance) there is one example that seems to offer proof of a change. Since I got Beta (original 10.2) I have tried a route that makes a left turn from 16th St onto West Peachtree St and then must cross 5 lanes in about ½ a block to make a right on Arts Center Way. 100% of the time it has always turned into the first or sometimes 2ed left lane. It has NEVER been able to change 5 lanes to turn onto Arts Center Way (see video of behavior).

However since 11.2 was released (I’m still on 69.25) my can now turns into the far right or 2ed to the right lane (like a human) and NOW makes the turn 100% of the time. How is this coincidence and change in lane picking behavior possible?

I had reported earlier this morning that I had mine cross 4 lanes very smoothly in one block to make a left turn.

 

[Ramphex]

I think that if there were no speed limits, it would be chaos out there. It would be a total free-for-all. It would be taken as a license to drive however and whatever.

Local toll expressway speed limit is 55. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a car going less than 80 on it. Speed limits don’t control chaos.

 

[Knightshade]

However since 11.2 was released (I’m still on 69.25) my can now turns into the far right or 2ed to the right lane (like a human) and NOW makes the turn 100% of the time. How is this coincidence and change in lane picking behavior possible?

Both versions getting the same updated maps easily makes that possible.

 

[Dewg]

Local toll expressway speed limit is 55. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a car going less than 80 on it. Speed limits don’t control chaos.

That's my point. If posted speed limits are ignored and people drive whatever they want, then logically speed limit signs are irrelevant and can be removed. People will simply drive a speed they are comfortable with. If the majority of people were driving 65 in a 45 zone, it's reasonable to assume, in the absence of a posted speed limit sign, the majority will continue to drive 65.

Unless the argument is that people have internal limits when they see a sign. The reason they are driving 65 in a 45 zone is that +20 over the limit is what they feel comfortable driving. If the limit was 55, they'd do 75, etc.

 

[heapmaster]

That's absolutely insane...traffic here in SoCal is ridiculous but I don't ever see people running red lights.

No but all of the single drivers want to get in and use the carpool lane to beat the standstill traffic.

 

[Enright]

I like how this thread has devolved (evolved?) into an existential debate over whether or not traffic laws are even necessary.

If 11.4 isn’t released soon, we’ll be debating the need for roads. After all, FSD would be much more efficient if it could drive directly to your destination and not have to follow all of those silly arbitrary paths to get there.

In all seriousness, it just took me 2.5 hours to get from Manhattan to JFK (a 10 mile trip!!) in an Uber - due to a combination of 50% psychotic and 50% idiotic drivers. The sooner we get these humans off the road the better.

 

[DBV1]

So, far with limited freeway testing, I don’t think the new beta update is a step forward and may possibly be a step backward. Especially if my first point below keeps happening.

The warnings to pay attention are way too often now. I can pickup my phone and quickly try to change a setting to Bluetooth and I get a warning now. That never happened before. Very annoying. If that keeps happening will just dump the beta. What is the point of FSD if you can’t even do that?

The new speed limit feature, that I think is linked to the recall is very annoying too. Suddenly the car just slows down, when that is not even needed? Seems more dangerous.

Both days I have tested freeway driving have been very windy, so not sure if this legitimate yet, but I don’t think it drives any smoother on the freeway and could even be worse. Before this update, my car was always kept center of the lane and now it seems to go back and forth more. But again, these are on windy days, so more testing needs to be done.

 

[JulienW]

Both versions getting the same updated maps easily makes that possible.

I haven't received a Navigation Data update. Is there one being pushed now? I don't have WiFi so I know when I get a Navigation Data update.