FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[mtndrew1]

Hey neighbor, I never wanted to be a beta tester, or an R&D investor. I thought I had purchased a product that was very very close to being finished.
now I have to test it, cover all the costs, pay for the insurance, accept all liability for an alleged "Beta at best product" without the hopes of ever getting V4 hardware.
For any of you that still buy the FSD kickstarter hype, what do you believe the accurate timeline for when Tesla and Elon will provide FSD on my 2018 model 3. How many years should a customer wait on Christmas before it was all BS is the only reasonable answer. Did any of you enthusiasts think in 2018 that 2025 would be an acceptable or legal delivery date for a "product", not a dream that was sold in 2018?
View attachment 967144

Oh what was originally promised/implied is literally never happening, I think most of us can agree on that.

I think highway only L3 or equivalent might happen though. So that’s something.

 

[Tronguy]

Hey neighbor, I never wanted to be a beta tester, or an R&D investor. I thought I had purchased a product that was very very close to being finished.
now I have to test it, cover all the costs, pay for the insurance, accept all liability for an alleged "Beta at best product" without the hopes of ever getting V4 hardware.
For any of you that still buy the FSD kickstarter hype, what do you believe the accurate timeline for when Tesla and Elon will provide FSD on my 2018 model 3. How many years should a customer wait on Christmas before it was all BS is the only reasonable answer. Did any of you enthusiasts think in 2018 that 2025 would be an acceptable or legal delivery date for a "product", not a dream that was sold in 2018?
View attachment 967144

So..

Tesla said it was a Beta. Said they needed More Data (i.e., stuff from testers to move it out of Beta status) in order to make it a non-Beta. And certainly people around here thought that was the case.

Also said that price would go up, the closer it got to non-Beta status. Which has certainly happened. And if you think $15k is too much, once it gets real, that number will be 'way too low.

So, your expectations of what you wished would be true turned out Not To Be The Same Thing That Tesla Was Saying.

And there's three year olds who Want Their Pony.

Most of us who had some sanity realized that Doing Something Like This For The First Time, For Real, is, no question, a research project. Anybody who's done Real Research knows that These Things Take Time, with the possible option of Never.

Nobody at Tesla has seemingly given up yet.

And, if there was somebody at Tesla who Could Change Their Minds... (on a slippery slope of Just What The Heck is FSD, Anyway, from 5 million different users and definitions), you somehow think that they'd be telling you?

C'mon, let's get real, here.

What you paid for is an empty lot with plans for the house that isn't built yet. That package comes at a substantial discount. Not a move-in ready place with furniture. Stop conflating the two.

 

[WilliamG]

What you paid for is an empty lot with plans for the house that isn't built yet. That package comes at a substantial discount. Not a move-in ready place with furniture. Stop conflating the two.

Na, that's a faulty analogy. It'd be like buying an empty lot with parts for the structure strewn around and being also promised that the structure sitting about on the lot will be built by the end of the year... and then by the end of the following year, and then the following year, ad nauseam. All the while, those structural parts are dating, and all you see is the new supply of "better" structural parts being released which you will not receive on your lot for your structure, while you continue to wait for your structure with its outdated parts to be built.

It's a con. FSDj is currently a con. The rose-tinted glasses must be exceptionally rose tinted if you believe it to be anything but that today.

 

[Sharps97]

Tried FSD again today, and as per usual disabled it within minutes because I just can’t deal with the erratic and simply incorrect / inappropriate behavior. And this was in not particularly difficult conditions.

It makes me wonder if Tesla is even doing simulations before releasing. It doesn’t feel like it. If they are, then they don’t know how to do regression testing yet. Well, they don’t know how to run simulations at all yet.

Fingers crossed that something improves by V12.

 

[Tronguy]

Na, that's a faulty analogy. It'd be like buying an empty lot with parts for the structure strewn around and being also promised that the structure sitting about on the lot will be built by the end of the year... and then by the end of the following year, and then the following year, ad nauseam. All the while, those structural parts are dating, and all you see is the new supply of "better" structural parts being released which you will not receive on your lot for your structure, while you continue to wait for your structure with its outdated parts to be built.

It's a con. FSDj is currently a con. The rose-tinted glasses must be exceptionally rose tinted if you believe it to be anything but that today.

Drove back and forth to Pennsylvania this weekend. 90 miles without a disengagement. Con jobs usually involve selling non-existent or non-functional goods. In this case, if it's a con, it's a very functional one.

There are bugs; but on this particular trip, didn't run into any bugs.

 

[jebinc]

Na, that's a faulty analogy. It'd be like buying an empty lot with parts for the structure strewn around and being also promised that the structure sitting about on the lot will be built by the end of the year... and then by the end of the following year, and then the following year, ad nauseam. All the while, those structural parts are dating, and all you see is the new supply of "better" structural parts being released which you will not receive on your lot for your structure, while you continue to wait for your structure with its outdated parts to be built.

It's a con. FSDj is currently a con. The rose-tinted glasses must be exceptionally rose tinted if you believe it to be anything but that today.

No kidding, right?! Unreal…

Chug, chug, chug that Koolaid.

 

[WilliamG]

Drove back and forth to Pennsylvania this weekend. 90 miles without a disengagement. Con jobs usually involve selling non-existent or non-functional goods. In this case, if it's a con, it's a very functional one.

There are bugs; but on this particular trip, didn't run into any bugs.

Why are we even using "disengagements" as the only metric by which to judge the quality of FSDj? By that logic, I can say I've had barely any disengagements. The car is quite happy to do the stupidest sh*t.

How many of your miles were highway? 89? 88?

 

[PACEMD]

So on Thursday, I'm flying to Seatle to pick up a new red/black 2023 M3P with FSD. Total price $20k less than if I ordered today online. $15k less because I transferred the FSD from my 2019 M3P-, and $5k off because the car was in inventory, sitting on the lot for less than a week with 2 miles on the odometer. Not a demo or a rejected order. Seatle keeps a few new vehicles on the lot for immediate sale. Price $51960, same as I paid for my Stealth M3 in 2019, and before the $6k I paid for FSD. For those who do not recall a Stealth M3P (M3P-) was/is a $2k upgrade of the long-range AWD Model 3, a long-range AWD M3 with the performance motors. This version was not available online and was/is not just a software performance upgrade as was later available, also for $2k. The Stealth had/has the 3.1s 0-60 motors, minus the lowered suspension, 20" wheels, performance brakes, spoiler, and metal brake/accelerator pedals. Perhaps not as good on the tracks but overall more practical. At the time the full M3P was $8k more than the Stealth, 10k more than the long-range AWD. So I'm paying $8k + 6k, or $14k less than this would have cost me for the same model in 2019 and 20k less than it would cost today.

My 2019 M3P- now has 70k miles, mostly FSD/FSDb highway miles, and has lost 10% of its full charge rating. It's going to my wife for local use. She loves that car but no way she would use FSD/FSDb. That car was my commuter, paid for by work. I had been thinking of an upgrade but wouldn't even consider a Tesla without FSD/FSDb and no way I wanted to pay the $15k for FSD as now priced. But without the FSD/FSDb it's just not a Tesla. The $6k I paid for FSD was well worth the cost, the $15k now, not so much. But problem solved with this current FSD transfer offer. Now the interesting thing will be the transfer process for the FSD, the paperwork has acknowledged the transfer but what actually happens? When will that software disappear from the 2019 model and when and in what version will it show up on the 2023 model? Meaning will the FSD on the 2023 be the latest beta version, in the beta wait-for-it line, and what version of non-FSD software will go to the 2019? New Teslas traditionally do not ship with the latest software installed, but what version will appear? To be determined.......In any case, good timing for me for the upgrade, even if there are the rumored fundamental changes for 2024?

 

[PACEMD]

No kidding, right?! Unreal…

Chug, chug, chug that Koolaid.

View attachment 967168

I love Koolaid! What flavor?

 

[jebinc]

So on Thursday, I'm flying to Seatle to pick up a new red/black 2023 M3P with FSD. Total price $20k less than if I ordered today online. $15k less because I transferred the FSD from my 2019 M3P-, and $5k off because the car was in inventory, sitting on the lot for less than a week with 2 miles on the odometer. Not a demo or a rejected order. Seatle keeps a few new vehicles on the lot for immediate sale. Price $51960, same as I paid for my Stealth M3 in 2019, and before the $6k I paid for FSD. For those who do not recall a Stealth M3P (M3P-) was/is a $2k upgrade of the long-range AWD Model 3, a long-range AWD M3 with the performance motors. This version was not available online and was/is not just a software performance upgrade as was later available, also for $2k. The Stealth had/has the 3.1s 0-60 motors, minus the lowered suspension, 20" wheels, performance brakes, spoiler, and metal brake/accelerator pedals. Perhaps not as good on the tracks but overall more practical. At the time the full M3P was $8k more than the Stealth, 10k more than the long-range AWD. So I'm paying $8k + 6k, or $14k less than this would have cost me for the same model in 2019 and 20k less than it would cost today.

My 2019 M3P- now has 70k miles, mostly FSD/FSDb highway miles, and has lost 10% of its full charge rating. It's going to my wife for local use. She loves that car but no way she would use FSD/FSDb. That car was my commuter, paid for by work. I had been thinking of an upgrade but wouldn't even consider a Tesla without FSD/FSDb and no way I wanted to pay the $15k for FSD as now priced. But without the FSD/FSDb it's just not a Tesla. The $6k I paid for FSD was well worth the cost, the $15k now, not so much. But problem solved with this current FSD transfer offer. Now the interesting thing will be the transfer process for the FSD, the paperwork has acknowledged the transfer but what actually happens? When will that software disappear from the 2019 model and when and in what version will it show up on the 2023 model? Meaning will the FSD on the 2023 be the latest beta version, in the beta wait-for-it line, and what version of non-FSD software will go to the 2019? New Teslas traditionally do not ship with the latest software installed, but what version will appear? To be determined.......In any case, good timing for me for the upgrade, even if there are the rumored fundamental changes for 2024?

Enjoy!

 

[jebinc]

I love Koolaid! What flavor?

Cherry as pictured!

 

[PACEMD]

Enjoy!

Thanks! And no worries, I can always turn this one in to the junkyard...........But be aware, my views of FSDp may now be even more skewed since for this round I paid essentially nothing..........nothing is a good deal.........

 

[jebinc]

Thanks! And no worries, I can always turn this one in to the junkyard...........But be aware, my views of FSDp may now be even more skewed since for this round I paid essentially nothing..........nothing is a good deal.........

For your sake, I hope you don’t get the widely reported 38-50mph vibration malady!

 

[PACEMD]

For your sake, I hope you don’t get the widely reported 38-50mph vibration malady!

Thanks for the warning and forgive me for misspelling your town........

 

[aronth5]

Oh what was originally promised/implied is literally never happening, I think most of us can agree on that.

I think highway only L3 or equivalent might happen though. So that’s something.

This.
Highway L3 is doable with a few improvements so Tesla so implement that as phase 1 while you work on L3 city/streets. Then work on L4/L5.
I just drove 45 minutes on the highway. How much better would that drive had been if I could have legally read/texted and/or watched a video.
Why aren't owners pushing for a phased aprpoach?

 

[PR0FESSOR]

N

 

[keeehlan]

So..

Tesla said it was a Beta. Said they needed More Data (i.e., stuff from testers to move it out of Beta status) in order to make it a non-Beta. And certainly people around here thought that was the case.

Also said that price would go up, the closer it got to non-Beta status. Which has certainly happened. And if you think $15k is too much, once it gets real, that number will be 'way too low.

So, your expectations of what you wished would be true turned out Not To Be The Same Thing That Tesla Was Saying.

And there's three year olds who Want Their Pony.

Most of us who had some sanity realized that Doing Something Like This For The First Time, For Real, is, no question, a research project. Anybody who's done Real Research knows that These Things Take Time, with the possible option of Never.

Nobody at Tesla has seemingly given up yet.

And, if there was somebody at Tesla who Could Change Their Minds... (on a slippery slope of Just What The Heck is FSD, Anyway, from 5 million different users and definitions), you somehow think that they'd be telling you?

C'mon, let's get real, here.

What you paid for is an empty lot with plans for the house that isn't built yet. That package comes at a substantial discount. Not a move-in ready place with furniture. Stop conflating the two.

Really, really gross rhetoric.

 

[drtimhill]

I am shocked. Just shocked that papa Elon said we would be getting 11.4.7 this past weekend and there’s nothing.

My guess is a significant percentage of the dev team are focused on the 12.x release branch, hence the slow down on 11.x releases. After all, if you are about to jettison a whole bunch of code why would you work on enhancing it? What work IS being done in 11.x will be focused on the parts that are going to continue into the 12.x branch.

(Just speculation of course, but been there, done that.)

 

[drtimhill]

523 Pages into this V11 thread, you make a good point.

...

And comfort will be a necessary step to gain market acceptance and success. So that will come, I figure. But for now, teaching FSD to deal with tough situations means we will see it drive into tough situations.

As for the haters, I prefer to not feed the trolls.

100% agree .. good post.

 

[MarcG]

We are beta testers, and I consider my job to report bugs, errors, neuroses, etc.

The hilarious-not-so-hilarious part about this well-written post is that we aren’t getting paid to do this job for Tesla, quite the opposite: WE PAID THEM to be beta testers and improve their product!

I’m not saying FSD should be free once it’s truly FULLY SELF DRIVING (at L4 or whatever level makes sense), but until then it’s difficult to swallow that we’ve paid so much for a largely unfinished product (referring to city streets AP).

I think this is why there’s so much debate about all the slow progress etc. I’ll bet that if Tesla made FSD beta free until it was ACTUALLY FSD (L4 or whatever), there would be a lot fewer complaints here.