FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[jebinc]

I think this means a new version!

Booooooooo

 

[EVNow]

But safety experts said while the recall is a good step, it still makes the driver responsible and doesn't fix the underlying problem “

So they want a ADAS where the driver is not responsible? Isn't that level 3 or something...

 

[MP3Mike]

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying Toyota dealers can't make any service appointments that don't include the recall.

No, that isn't the same. Just like it's illegal for Tesla to sell a vehicle with an outstanding recall, I think that it is illegal to install a version of software that has been recalled.

I think exceptions were made in some cases like the air bag recall, they allowed new recalled air bags to be installed because they were safer than the old ones that were turned into bombs. But generally they can't install a recalled part.

 

[Tronguy]

Legally I don't think Tesla can push any software updates that don't include the recall fix. So you have zero chance of getting 11.4.8.1.

The actual NHTSA notice has some verbiage, right at the end, that certain cars won't get the update until February of 2024 or something. So there's some room for flexibility.

And, as noted further down from your post (and above this one) there's some indication that some cars are getting the 2023.44.30 update this very minute.

 

[MP3Mike]

The actual NHTSA notice has some verbiage, right at the end, that certain cars won't get the update until February of 2024 or something. So there's some room for flexibility.

It doesn't say any such thing. It says notifications won't go out until February. You may already have the fix before you get the notice. (Yes, they are required to send the paper notice even if the recall has already been resolved in your vehicle.) The notice may say your car won't get the fix for months.

And, as noted further down from your post (and above this one) there's some indication that some cars are getting the 2023.44.30 update this very minute.

How is that relevant? Were those cars running 2023.27.x? All cars won't get the same version.

 

[Tronguy]

So they want a ADAS where the driver is not responsible? Isn't that level 3 or something...

What the actual recall notice says is that they want a Bigger, Brighter Notice That The Conditions Don't Warrant TACC/LK.

Further, up towards the middle of the notice, it specifically excludes City Streets (i.e., FSD-b). Near as I can tell, the whole business is talking primarily about Standard Autopilot.

Now, there are some words along the lines of, "Software depending upon TACC/LK", so FSD-b might be involved with the notices.

Near as I can tell, what this update is delivering is notices. Presumably (and I think I'm half-kidding, here) big, bright notices that'll sear the eyeballs and set one's ears to ringing. Not 30-pitch font with a minor boop. .

 

[jebinc]

What the actual recall notice says is that they want a Bigger, Brighter Notice That The Conditions Don't Warrant TACC/LK.

Further, up towards the middle of the notice, it specifically excludes City Streets (i.e., FSD-b). Near as I can tell, the whole business is talking primarily about Standard Autopilot.

Now, there are some words along the lines of, "Software depending upon TACC/LK", so FSD-b might be involved with the notices.

Near as I can tell, what this update is delivering is notices. Presumably (and I think I'm half-kidding, here) big, bright notices that'll sear the eyeballs and set one's ears to ringing. Not 30-pitch font with a minor boop. .

Like a “screaming goat,” loud?!

 

[archae86]

So they want a ADAS where the driver is not responsible? Isn't that level 3 or something...

Worse yet, I think the way they phrase it means they are saying the software should make no mistakes (hence no driver attentiveness truly required).

That would assure no self-driving software ever hit the road--even versions with far, far higher safety than humans, but still not perfect.

Wrong criterion--in my strong opinion.

 

[swedge]

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying Toyota dealers can't make any service appointments that don't include the recall.

I think that FSD beta is not an issue in the recall. FSD is intended to be usable essentially everywhere (in US and Canada). The recall was based on people using AutoPilot on roads for which it was not intended, so part of the fix is to disallow standard AutoPilot on non-controlled roads. FSD is designed for such roads, so no change is needed.

FSD may suffer from the same problem of drivers not paying attention, so changes in the nagging may apply to FSD beta.

I think this, like the other recalls, is wrong, because disallowing AP on many roads on which it works fine, will fully expose those drivers to the full risk when they get distracted - think texting, for example. AP offers substantial protection from those risks. Nation studies have estimated that up to 50% of accidents are caused by inattention. This is a huge risk which AP substantially mitigates. Not perfectly, but according to Tesla's accident data far better than disallowing AP on the vast majority of US roads.

This sounds like an example of the demand for perfection quashing a good improvement.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Not perfectly, but according to Tesla's accident data far better than disallowing AP on the vast majority of US roads.

You may well be right about this with your argument about perils of reducing ODD - but remember we actually have no data which would allow us to investigate the possibility of it helping lower accident rates in the cases you mention. Would be nice to have that!

Unfortunately Tesla has never attempted to provide this. (It’s actually quite difficult and subject to criticisms about methodology so I don’t really blame them for just providing their raw data (which doesn’t provide any info relevant to this topic unfortunately).)

Just important to remember that the demonstrable lower accident rates when using AP do not imply lower accident rates with AP in comparable situations. It’s even possible that using AP increases accident rates (though I kind of doubt it). The data showing lower accident rates with AP unfortunately does not allow us to conclude one way or another.

(Similarly, it’s been pointed out that collision rates with animals are certainly higher when headlights are on (ignore DRL here) - but of course that doesn’t mean that you should drive around with your headlights off!)

Anyway I guess this is kind of OT.

 

[sleepydoc]

Interesting datapoint for 11.4.8.1 from my TeslaFi, it looks like my FSDb drives are less economical than previous versions.
It’s noticeably smoother but seems to consume more power. Too many variables to be sure though

Also, it was raining this morning and the WIPERS WORKED!!!

 

[EVNow]

I think that it is illegal to install a version of software that has been recalled.

Are you speculating or do you *know* ? Are you a lawyer ?

 

[EVNow]

Near as I can tell, what this update is delivering is notices. Presumably (and I think I'm half-kidding, here) big, bright notices that'll sear the eyeballs and set one's ears to ringing. Not 30-pitch font with a minor boop. .

Atleast one of the things has already been implemented. Single pull.

simplifying engagement and disengagement of Autosteer,

But yes - looks like FSD is excluded.

Autosteer is designed and intended for use on controlled-accesshighways when the feature is not operating in conjunction with the Autosteeron City Streets feature.

So they are calling AP as "autosteer" and FSD as "Autosteer on city streets".

 

[uscbucsfan]

Are you speculating or do you *know* ? Are you a lawyer ?

There was some info from the Feb recall that Tesla was not allowed to push new updates that didn't fix the recall...and everyone waited.

 

[EVNow]

There was some info from the Feb recall that Tesla was not allowed to push new updates that didn't fix the recall...and everyone waited.

IIRC, that was a speculation.

Ofcourse it makes business sense to not push optional updates when a mandatory one is pending. But I doubt its "illegal" to do so.

ps : It may be illegal to sell new cars with the defect - depending on negotiated settlement.

 

[uscbucsfan]

IIRC, that was a speculation.

Ofcourse it makes business sense to not push optional updates when a mandatory one is pending. But I doubt its "illegal" to do so.

ps : It may be illegal to sell new cars with the defect - depending on negotiated settlement.

I don't think it was. I think there was actual verbiage that Tesla would not release a future update until it was resolved.

I don't care enough to look, but there weren't any updates until the fix was released.

 

[Tronguy]

I think that FSD beta is not an issue in the recall. FSD is intended to be usable essentially everywhere (in US and Canada). The recall was based on people using AutoPilot on roads for which it was not intended, so part of the fix is to disallow standard AutoPilot on non-controlled roads. FSD is designed for such roads, so no change is needed.

Um. People had been making comments about the bit that I underlined, above. So, when reading the NHTSA notice, I went looking for something that said that, specifically.

Um. It didn't say that, specificially, at least not that I noticed.

What it did say was that there were conditions where TACC/LK wouldn't turn on. We kind of know that already: In a heavy rainstorm, I know for a fact that LK/TACC won't even engage if the spray/mist/fog/general visibility goes 'way down. And comes back when conditions improve, and that was on interstates.

The first car I had was a 2018 M3 which came with EAP, so I can't exactly speak to Standard Autopilot users, although the SO's 2021 MY had that for a few months before we shelled out for EAP for that car. So I don't remember, exactly, if Teslas put up restrictions with fog/mist/no lanes markings back then like they do right now with FSD-b.

But some verbiage that says, "Only on restricted access highways."? Didn't see that.

We'll know more when people start getting the update and start driving around with it. Supposedly cars coming off the production line as of 12/9/2023 or so have the change (exact date's in the notice), so owners of new cars that (a) don't shell out for EAP/FSD or (b) don't use the freebie FSD package are already experiencing whatever the change is doing.

But, for the moment: It seems to be all about the Notices, not about restricting the use thereof. Or no more than usual.

 

[EVNow]

But, for the moment: It seems to be all about the Notices, not about restricting the use thereof. Or no more than usual.

And disabling AP if used in a "wrong" way a certain number of times ... ?

 

[MP3Mike]

Are you speculating or do you *know* ? Are you a lawyer ?

I said "I think". And no.

But I am 99% sure. OEMs can't install recalled parts in vehicles, at least not without an exception from NHTSA. (Look at the airbag recall where they got approval to replace old recalled airbags with new recalled airbags because a new one is safer than an "old" one, but they had to come back and replace them with non-recalled airbags at a later time.) I would think software is exactly the same, Tesla can't push recalled software.

In this case Tesla had to put a hold on all vehicles sales, they even held old used vehicles, until they had the recall fix installed.

From: https://www.nada.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/imported/2961_recall_faq_f.pdf

Federal law imposes a “stop sale” on all new, undelivered vehicles and parts subject to safety recalls. Once a dealer receives a safety recall notice, affected new vehicles or parts may not be delivered until the defect or noncompliance is remedied.

I'm sure the government would count software as a "part." (Tesla does have to deliver it to the vehicles.)

 

[Tronguy]

I said "I think". And no.

But I am 99% sure. OEMs can't install recalled parts in vehicles, at least not without an exception from NHTSA. (Look at the airbag recall where they got approval to replace old recalled airbags with new recalled airbags because a new one is safer than an "old" one, but they had to come back and replace them with non-recalled airbags at a later time.) I would think software is exactly the same, Tesla can't push recalled software.

In this case Tesla had to put a hold on all vehicles sales, they even held old used vehicles, until they had the recall fix installed.

From: https://www.nada.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/imported/2961_recall_faq_f.pdf


I'm sure the government would count software as a "part." (Tesla does have to deliver it to the vehicles.)

Um. The recall notice on the NHTSA's web site, previously posted, specifically said that all Teslas leaving the production lines since, I think, the first or second week in December Have The Fix.

So, no need to stop shipping, I take it.