"Tesla is a SCAM!!" - BMW Dealership

[McRat]

Ok, that must have escaped me. I drive an E46, but not an M3 after all.

In America, M3's were only allowed to be delivered after the dealer pulled the pin and jumped in a foxhole. When an M3 grenaded, BMW was denying warranty due to 'owner abuse'. Later, BMW rescinded that directive when it was discovered BMW knew about the problem and it was a manufacturing+engineering mistake. Without the public uproar, they would have conned hundreds of owners into paying for expensive warranty repairs.

That is about as scummy as a car company can get. Blaming owners for things they know are factory mistakes.

 

[sandpiper]

Which is why I refuse to reward that kind of behavior. If I get a whiff of that sort of thing, I'm a cloud of dust, even if I wanted the product when I walked in the door.

I'm the same. Sales is a third of my job, and so these tactics are blatantly obvious to me. And I despise it.

 

[Tummy]

We leased our first 2014 BMW i3 right when they came out around July. Got our second one about 6 months later. I cross shopped with Model S, but in mid 2014 Tesla didn't even have standard parking sensors or adaptive cruise control. Autopilot was just announced, but the software wasn't released until almost a year later in October 2015.

Our i3s were so cheap, about $65/month, total of $1,500 for 24 month lease after tax incentives. Both had a $50k MSRP new. You can get low mileage CPO '14 i3s for about $15-18k. If the range works for you and you are trying to save money, I think they work pretty well.

After our leases went back, we got a '16 Model S 60 and a 3 reservation. I would say they are very different cars, where the i3 is a great upscale commuter car and the Model S is a performance/luxury car. The way BMW leases have inflated residuals, negotiating a discount, plus tax incentives can make them dirt cheap. I could have leased 13 i3s for how much I'm paying for our Model S.

 

[internalaudit]

Why wouldn't they be under pressure when I tell them my next car is definitely going to be a Tesla instead of a BMW?

I think they know that once (say 2020+) all manufacturers offer long range BEVs, Tesla will be just another player among many. And for the time being, Tesla might eat away some sales temporarily, but will that stay like that forever?

I mean, I am a realist. If I had the choice between the Model 3 and a BMW BEV with Model 3 specs, looks and price, I would choose the BMW, no questions asked. The Supercharger network notwithstanding, as that is of little use to me personally anyway, as I rarely drive more than 200 miles in one go, perhaps three or four times a year at most. My Model 3 will be charged at home or work 99% of the time.

The SC network is a bonus for Tesla, a "nice to have", but it is certainly not the decisive factor some make it out to be.

The main Tesla USPs are
- incredible performance
- upgradeability
- user experience

To main Tesla cons seem to be
- price
- low tech approach to battery
- inefficent motor

I too am not in the Tesla Cloud 9. For now, no EV comes close to the Tesla experience but give it a few more years, and consumers like us, will have a lot more BEVs to choose from. I too don't care much about the SCN especially with a 250-310 mile range BEV.

What is this low tech approach to battery? The TMS does seem to work but I read the battery chemistry is less stable.

Fret not...Just an chance to show off his wittiness...five BMWs later, I've never had that need either. Current BMW has had zero repair issues in three years, other than a door trim rattle, easily repaired. It won't go away when Model 3 arrives as a fleet addition and I hope the Model 3 is at least of similar quality/reliability.

That's true. Hopefully removal of the ICE and multi-gear transmission will allow German car manufacturers to focus on upping the reliability they once were renowned for.

 

[jelloslug]

The car industry has a major disruption coming soon. BMW has a higher probability to surf the chaos and come out the of the disruption in one piece. Their chances of survival are better than average. They will still lose sales to Tesla in the coming years and the only things they have "on the shelf" right now to combat Tesla is a weird mobile that is significantly smaller than anything Tesla makes with rather poor range (the i3) and a hybrid sports car that also looks like a weird mobile and has decent performance but paltry electric range.

They, like most European automakers, are promising more EVs and/or hybrids coming soon, but as was discussed in another thread here in the last couple of days, car companies have been big on promises with EVs and have not delivered as many cars as they promise. Audi claimed they would have a pure EV in 2009, but it still isn't here.

The European auto makers are making more movement towards EVs. There are actually some changes happening in supply chains and factories, but the planned ramp ups are very long. They are talking about mass producing EVs around 2020 or later when Tesla will be mass producing the Model 3 next year.

I'm not an unthinking Tesla fanboy. I came about my position the long route. I started out looking at ICE, then hybrids. I was amazed that there was nothing out there that met my (I thought) modest criteria to replace my Buick:

1) Enough leg room, I have very long legs and smaller cars are usually torture.
2) 20% better gas mileage (than a 1992 car with a 5.7L V-8).
3) At least 80% the cargo capacity (large for a sedan of the era, but I didn't think all that special)
4) Same or better acceleration (0-60 mph in about 8s)

I found nothing that met that criteria until I found the Model S. And it destroyed my Buick in every category. It has 4X the energy efficiency, 3X the cargo capacity, and 1/2 the 0-60 time. I didn't buy the Model S because it was an electric car. I bought it because it is a superior car to everything else available.

I'm an engineer. Being able to make something that superior to what has gone before is the real story of Tesla. Tesla has had teething problems and I was concerned about reliability, but I saw the 2015s had improved dramatically so I bit in 2016. So far this car has been more reliable than my Buick on top of everything else, and I drove the Buick for 24 years with very few problems.

Exactly, I always tell people that the various EVs I have had are better cars, not just better in some hard to grasp metric (for some people) .

 

[azred]

As my last thought on this unsurprising post by the OP: A few years ago Gallup did a survey on trustworthy professions. I believe Nurses scored highest, which is kind of nice considering they often literally have our lives in their hands. Near the bottom (highest trustworthiness to lowest with several professions omitted): journalists, lawyers, insurance salesmen, stockbrokers, Congressmen, and — dead last — car salesmen. Is it any wonder that Tesla is having trouble with its sales model? Politicians and car dealers working together to protect consumers. What a joke.

 

[jelloslug]

We leased our first 2014 BMW i3 right when they came out around July. Got our second one about 6 months later. I cross shopped with Model S, but in mid 2014 Tesla didn't even have standard parking sensors or adaptive cruise control. Autopilot was just announced, but the software wasn't released until almost a year later in October 2015.

Our i3s were so cheap, about $65/month, total of $1,500 for 24 month lease after tax incentives. Both had a $50k MSRP new. You can get low mileage CPO '14 i3s for about $15-18k. If the range works for you and you are trying to save money, I think they work pretty well.

After our leases went back, we got a '16 Model S 60 and a 3 reservation. I would say they are very different cars, where the i3 is a great upscale commuter car and the Model S is a performance/luxury car. The way BMW leases have inflated residuals, negotiating a discount, plus tax incentives can make them dirt cheap. I could have leased 13 i3s for how much I'm paying for our Model S.

My i3 cost $117 a month...

 

[Olle]

Not unique to BMW dealers. Probably true for every high pressure commission based sales job. Do whatever it takes to, As Alec Baldwin famously says in GlenGary Glen Ross. "get them to sign on the line which is dotted"

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't know. Somehow German salespeople seem to be a different kind of breed. At least the ones I have experienced so far.
When I was at my BMW dealership the last time, they asked me - as per usual - whether I was still satisfied with my car and whether I would be interested in one of their latest offerings. When I told them that I have a Model 3 reservation and intend to get that car and keep it until the German competition offers a comparable model, they were highly sympathetic and said "Fair enough". No FUD towards Tesla at all. On the contrary, the salesperson I talked to even acknowledged that the i3 was no match for any Tesla (and wasn't intended as such anyway). Very pleasant conversation and no hard feelings on either side.

It is my understanding from many years of car forums that the only European equivalent of an American new car dealership, is a European used car dealership. (Used car sales are probably as bad everywhere.)

New car purchases are such a different beast in Europe - averaging out the many experiences I've discussed over a wide continent, of course - that the dealership concept is completely different compared to the U.S.

The new car sales people are nowhere near as slimy or terrible as they are in the U.S. That's why Europeans on average do not quite hate their car dealerships as much as the Americans do.

In fact, in many ways (actually, in every way) my old dealership experiences are superior to my Tesla store experiences. But I would probably think different if I lived in the U.S.

 

[Olle]

The new car sales people are nowhere near as slimy or terrible as they are in the U.S. That's why Europeans on average do not quite hate their car dealerships as much as the Americans do..

For obvious reasons. In the EU, car salesperson is a real job with fixed salary and benefits. In the U.S. it is your a last-option-solely-commission based job that you take once all other avenues in life are exhausted.

Read this and you will understand
http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

The car industry has a major disruption coming soon. BMW has a higher probability to surf the chaos and come out the of the disruption in one piece. Their chances of survival are better than average. They will still lose sales to Tesla in the coming years and the only things they have "on the shelf" right now to combat Tesla is a weird mobile that is significantly smaller than anything Tesla makes with rather poor range (the i3) and a hybrid sports car that also looks like a weird mobile and has decent performance but paltry electric range.

They, like most European automakers, are promising more EVs and/or hybrids coming soon, but as was discussed in another thread here in the last couple of days, car companies have been big on promises with EVs and have not delivered as many cars as they promise. Audi claimed they would have a pure EV in 2009, but it still isn't here.

The European auto makers are making more movement towards EVs. There are actually some changes happening in supply chains and factories, but the planned ramp ups are very long. They are talking about mass producing EVs around 2020 or later when Tesla will be mass producing the Model 3 next year.

I'm not an unthinking Tesla fanboy. I came about my position the long route. I started out looking at ICE, then hybrids. I was amazed that there was nothing out there that met my (I thought) modest criteria to replace my Buick:

1) Enough leg room, I have very long legs and smaller cars are usually torture.
2) 20% better gas mileage (than a 1992 car with a 5.7L V-8).
3) At least 80% the cargo capacity (large for a sedan of the era, but I didn't think all that special)
4) Same or better acceleration (0-60 mph in about 8s)

I found nothing that met that criteria until I found the Model S. And it destroyed my Buick in every category. It has 4X the energy efficiency, 3X the cargo capacity, and 1/2 the 0-60 time. I didn't buy the Model S because it was an electric car. I bought it because it is a superior car to everything else available.

I'm an engineer. Being able to make something that superior to what has gone before is the real story of Tesla. Tesla has had teething problems and I was concerned about reliability, but I saw the 2015s had improved dramatically so I bit in 2016. So far this car has been more reliable than my Buick on top of everything else, and I drove the Buick for 24 years with very few problems.

Ditto - Engineer, swapped out a Toyota 4-runner for 2016 Model S (sold on a 3, but could not resist the siren call and jumped) - loving my S every day- no regrets. Not sure what to do with my early 3 standing. Wife still does not want it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

For obvious reasons. In the EU, car salesperson is a real job with fixed salary and benefits. In the U.S. it is your a last-option-solely-commission based job that you take once all other avenues in life are exhausted.

Read this and you will understand
http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf

Good point.

One other reason that springs to mind is that in Europe new car sales are more often custom orders than in the U.S. where they are lot-sales. So the sales person is not moving inventory, but providing a service of ordering a factory car. This also removes some of the questionable aspects, such as how pricing works.

 

[scottm]

Nope.

Tesla is not a scam.

I went to snopes.com and searched on 'tesla scam' and there are 2 hits related to automotive in the top results... both are about VW not bringing a 300 MPG car to US market because it was banned for being "too efficient".

(in reality: didn't make to market because its hybrid diesel engine setup couldn't pass emissions - ha! )

But nothing scammy about Tesla company. They did have this to say about Teslas:

And if one buys into the conspiracy theory that the government and Big Oil are colluding to keep high-mileage vehicles off the U.S. market in order to protect profits from gasoline sales, one has to wonder why those powerful and malevolent entities aren’t doing anything to stop Americans from purchasing cars produced by Tesla, superbly-performing vehicles that use no gasoline at all yet still deliver premium performance, have great range for electric cars, have received the highest rating of any automobile ever evaluated by Consumer Reports, are top-rated for safety even under tougher U.S. standards, but are widely available for purchase in the U.S.

That was written in 2014. I've highlighted, in green, and challenge this statement in today's world... I think there now are forces at work trying to prevent people from buying Teslas... namely, every other car manufacturer coming out with their own electric cars to entice people away with another option in the market. Turns out, big oil lost.. that game is over. Gas is going to get cheaper and cheaper until nobody needs it anymore... gas cars will become viewed as a "third world" mode of transport.

Driving my S around now for 3 years is also pretty convincing that the car works.

Wait for your model 3, it probably won't be a scam either.

I think BMW is just miffed that Tesla is moving the "3" away from their car and putting it on the Tesla. When people hear "3" now, they think Tesla... not BMW 3-series. That's gotta sting.

 

[Park2670]

I worked for a BMW dealership here in the U.S. When visiting friends they tell me very similar things about how the i3 battery is VASTLY superior to the Tesla battery, and this is what they were trained by BMW NA during i3 training. They are told the Tesla is so inferior that they should talk every Tesla buyer into a i3 instead since its so much better.

 

[Galve2000]

In the U.S. it is your a last-option-solely-commission based job that you take once all other avenues in life are exhausted.

So True..

I think BMW is just miffed that Tesla is moving the "3" away from their car and putting it on the Tesla. When people hear "3" now, they think Tesla... not BMW 3-series. That's gotta sting.

I hadn't thought of that.. although it occurred to me years ago when BMW 1st released their i line of electric cars that they were trying to forge an association with Apple products.. iPod.. iPhone etc etc.

I considered an i3 as a replacement to my Chevy Volt although not seriously. It was always a stop gap until more level 2 and destination chargers sprouted up in NYC so I could ditch gas entirely.

My brother in law drives one as his daily commuter car in London, UK (he charges for free each day at work out of a regular "household" outlet) and pays next to nothing in registration fees so he is saving quite a but of money.

I also helped sell an i3 with range extender to a buddy of mine from college who is a total tech head and suddenly found himself gainfully employed with a bit of disposable income. Those i3 leases are SUPER ATTRACTIVE. also, he is all about trying to road trip using the range extender and SAE DC chargers.

 

[SageBrush]

You have some serious Fanboy issues.....
Relax.

Said the German car fanboy

 

[CAVU]

Electric will never replace fossil fuel. Until something better than electric is produced we will always have gas cars. We are a go society and people simply will not wait for a recharge on the road and batteries simply lose capacity the older they get.

 

[SageBrush]

Those i3 leases are SUPER ATTRACTIVE.

I am a bit of an i3 fanboy and I know my wife would love an i3 if we lived in a CARB state with attractive leases, but I have to say that the best value is probably the Bolt. Those cars are practically given away. And I don't feel too bad about recommending a GM product since they are not making money on the car at those lease rates.

 

[bak_phy]

Electric will never replace fossil fuel

Electricity is not a fuel and thus can not replace anything. It does allow us to have other sources than oil for fuel.

 

[Ciaopec]

Ditto - Engineer, swapped out a Toyota 4-runner for 2016 Model S (sold on a 3, but could not resist the siren call and jumped) - loving my S every day- no regrets. Not sure what to do with my early 3 standing. Wife still does not want it.

(Waving my had, waiting to be called on). I'll take it (unless it is to be delivered in late 2018 as mine is)!