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[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance

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I think single stack will be in all our cars within 6 months - what we won't have is some of the functions the US have,

They will want to move anybody onto the same code base, they need to start the learning in Europe and they'll need the code to enable that, they have to fix the USS issue and that will come from the whole modelling of the surrounding area etc. which city streets is giving them

All the UNECE regs will do is limit which driving features are enabled, much like EAP and FSD has different features
Saving this post for later :D

God I so wish that you could be right, but I agree with @Zilla91 that it's already gonna be a stretch for them to adapt it to EU, so even if it happens I expect RHD to be served long after that.
Is there any indication they've started already?
Last I've heard they mentioned something at the end of last year about expanding to Canada, then Norway first?
 
I could be mistaken, but isn't it at least rumoured that the legendary Single Stack is being tested in Europe by employees? If so, hopefully its fundamental detection, identification and planning mechanisms aren't totally obvlivious to European roads, markings, signs, etc, etc and it can be deployed in the near future without basic AP, NOA, etc all degrading to uselessness! If USS replacement is relying on the Single Stack that had better be the case, or lawsuits are even more likely than they already are!
 
I don't think that is true. Doesn't it limit the speed around corners, and dictates timing for lane changes, etc.?
Yes, but we get the same today. In the US the same AP we have is less restricted but Tesla apply a set of regional constraints. It would seem very likely that FSD is capable of receiving the same overlay. It will make it far less functional, but the same underlying visualisation and planning software could be used.

I imagine many of us are far more interested in how the single stack will behave on motorways, and whether it will pass the bar for full autonomy as is strictly allowed in limited circumstances today (the laws are in place, Gov just hasn't certified anything to be allowed to use those laws).
 
regarding USS specifically - in theory would the single stack software at least bring USS replacement via vision to US cars then? Even if we don't get the software yet that is perhaps the first sight we'll have of it
The working assumption is that yes, they are necessarily writing the USS remplacement software into single stack. There would be little sense to have it developed on legacy software simultaneously. But so far, single stack has only been deployed to FSD beta users, so 350k cars total, all in the US. But so far we haven't seen any of those displaying parking features for non USS, so it's not enabled yet.
TL, DR: we don't know
 
I don't think that is true. Doesn't it limit the speed around corners, and dictates timing for lane changes, etc.?
Surely all it means is the car will do what it does now and abort mid corner.

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t think we’ll have any more features or capabilities, only that what we have now will perform better, and some of tbt missing features due to USS will start to emerge
 
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Surely all it means is the car will do what it does now and abort mid corner.

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t think we’ll have any more features or capabilities, only that what we have now will perform better, and some of tbt missing features due to USS will start to emerge
Personally I'm not longing for additional features, improvement of the existing would be great.
If Autopark will actually be able to complete a manoeuvre and fit into a parking space instead of stopping halfway, sticking out on the road, fantastic.

If it means it will give Tesla the confidence to apply for L3 certification in Europe once FSDb will be polished so be it...
 
But so far, single stack has only been deployed to FSD beta users, so 350k cars total, all in the US.
Actually "single stack" has only been deployed to employee cars, and ~15 FSD Beta EAP, Early Access Program, users. It has not gone to the ~400k FSD Beta users yet. We still have the old dual stack software.

Elon has said it needs at least one more "point release" of polish before it goes to the ~400k FSD Beta users.

But so far we haven't seen any of those displaying parking features for non USS, so it's not enabled yet.
I don't think we have seen the single stack software running on a non-USS vehicle yet.
 
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I don't think that is true. Doesn't it limit the speed around corners, and dictates timing for lane changes, etc.?

It does indeed dictate parameters for some operations, but these are the same parameters that many other manufacturers manage to adhere to and they don't seem to suffer to the same degree as Tesla. Its not the regulations that are at fault, imho they are perfectly reasonable parameters, but it is Tesla's poor implementation that causes most of the issues. One example of current poor implementation below.

Surely all it means is the car will do what it does now and abort mid corner.
I do hope you are wrong. I was kind of hoping that finally the car will know that it has to negotiate a corner and what the safe parameters are and slow to a reasonable speed before hitting a problem mid corner rather than careering blindly into the corner without slowing, exceeding the lateral force parameters and throwing a wobbly as it does now.
 
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It does indeed dictate parameters for some operations, but these are the same parameters that many other manufacturers manage to adhere to and they don't seem to suffer to the same degree as Tesla. Its not the regulations that are at fault, imho they are perfectly reasonable parameters, but it is Tesla's poor implementation that causes most of the issues. One example of current poor implementation below.


I do hope you are wrong. I was kind of hoping that finally the car will know that it has to negotiate a corner and what the safe parameters are and slow to a reasonable speed before hitting a problem mid corner rather than careering blindly into the corner without slowing, exceeding the lateral force parameters and throwing a wobbly as it does now.
Well yes, the car working out what the legal max speed was to stay compliant, and the safe speed if that was different, and adapting the speed accordingly would be a step forward. I posted a video the other day and that includes some footage of the YouTuber trying to use the car on a twisty country road, if I recall they were doing half the speed limit. It wasn’t the type of road I’d use it on but the car crossed onto the wrong side of the carriage way and aborted all the time rather than say ‘20mph is the right speed here, not the National speed limit’. Most of the footage I’ve seen from the US are fairly straight roads, certainly nothing like some of our roads
 
Actually "single stack" has only been deployed to employee cars, and ~15 FSD Beta EAP, Early Access Program, users. It has not gone to the ~400k FSD Beta users yet. We still have the old dual stack software.

Elon has said it needs at least one more "point release" of polish before it goes to the ~400k FSD Beta users.


I don't think we have seen the single stack software running on a non-USS vehicle yet.
My mistake, I mixed up the 'classic' FSD beta with FSD beta v11.
Though I was under the impression v11 had been rolled out to certain users (non employees) already?
 
Does anyone know the latest on rollout of the alternative feature?
At the end of January I received a reply of platitudes and hollow promises from Tesla UK/Ireland Customer Resolutions to an email I sent the previous month. Without any subsequent progress I emailed them again yesterday, an extract from that below but I am not expecting a reply this time.

"Since your email on 25th January I have been waiting for this ’temporary’ feature to be ‘promptly re-enabled' -available in your vehicle soon and look forward to enhanced development of associated features' (your own words, not mine).
In spite of your reply containing many such 'assurances', it has been been several months since you removed this functionality so please can you provide a definitive replacement date for USS features using vision that will give as good or better than we had previously (once again, as stated in your 25th January reply)."
 
I would hope a new stack would implement it better than that.

It *knows* what the angle of the corner is.. it can calculate a safe speed to take said corner.. it just.. doesn't. It just goes full welly and gives up.
Can somebody tell me if AP, new stack or otherwise, uses navigation map data at all to determine and anticipate corners or if it relies only on pure vision, no map?

I would have thought map data would give a heads up and would better assist approaching some sharp turns rather than seeing AP / FSD caught short.
 
Chinever, Tesla have got to sort this problem out and fast, if its a retrofit so be it. Tesla have gone too far and cannot suppress or contain this adverse PR which is spreading giving free publicity to all the other EV manufacturers who are holding prices but not skimping on parts and equipment. Whilst Tesla is slashing prices and cutting equipment to save a few quid the brand is loosing its status as a luxury vehicle, soon I expect it will be buy one get one free.
Had a very fast response from Tesla UK to day following my complaint a few days ago regarding non availability of parking functions.

One point to note on the delivery of Vision to replace the USS, its admitted that the update expected at the beginning of the new year has passed. therefore its 2003 and not as one replied which New Year.

The other point that vision acknowledgement does not state configuration that contains USS Sensors, which I don't recall but I don't care if the parking is reinstated using sensors, cameras or magic dust its not been delivered.

The other note is last paragraph that tesla can make any changes but in their opinion the changes has not affected my order..... well when I ordered the vehicle it had Park, Park Assist, Summon and Special Summons in December the vehicle was delivered without those functions therefore it defiantly affected my order.

Kept the rest as don't wish to share it at the moment.




Previous Expectations for the Arrival Time of Tesla Vision

We acknowledge that our previous estimated arrival time for Tesla Vision has now passed. The wider organisation was informed that the Tesla Vision update would arrive at the beginning of the year, hence these expectations were set among the ownership community. Sadly, as you are aware this period has passed, and we are still waiting on the Tesla Vision update to arrive. We appreciate this continues to disappoint and we are terribly sorry for this. It is of course, within our shared best interests to have Tesla Vision ready as soon as possible. Trust you will be notified as soon as any progress is made in this regard.


Deception


Please know we do not wish to deceive our customers or prospective customers in this regard. Every customer who has an order booked receives the Tesla Vision acknowledgement and their configuration does not state that the vehicle contains Ultra-Sonic Sensors.

Technically Advanced Vehicles


The Motor Vehicle Order Agreement which you agree to adhere to at the time of purchase it states, ‘As we are continuously improving our vehicles, we may make changes, including changes to the manufacturing technologies or materials applied to, or used for, any Vehicle components, to your Vehicle to the extent those do not, at our reasonable discretion, materially affect your order”. Therefore, any software changes or improvements made to your vehicle, are done so in line with the above agreed terms and any surrounding agreements that Tesla have with you in relation to your vehicle. Like any products, changes can be made at any time.




 
What’s interesting, in case it adds anything, Tesla now don’t seem to reveal the build codes of inventory cars thereby removing the ability to see if a car has parking sensors or not. Whether this is to hide parking sensors, or whether a car has AP HW4 or some other reason, they’re restricting the ability to see a cars detailed configuration on material aspects such as this.
 
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Had a very fast response from Tesla UK to day following my complaint a few days ago regarding non availability of parking functions.

One point to note on the delivery of Vision to replace the USS, its admitted that the update expected at the beginning of the new year has passed. therefore its 2003 and not as one replied which New Year.

The other point that vision acknowledgement does not state configuration that contains USS Sensors, which I don't recall but I don't care if the parking is reinstated using sensors, cameras or magic dust its not been delivered.

The other note is last paragraph that tesla can make any changes but in their opinion the changes has not affected my order..... well when I ordered the vehicle it had Park, Park Assist, Summon and Special Summons in December the vehicle was delivered without those functions therefore it defiantly affected my order.

Kept the rest as don't wish to share it at the moment.




Previous Expectations for the Arrival Time of Tesla Vision

We acknowledge that our previous estimated arrival time for Tesla Vision has now passed. The wider organisation was informed that the Tesla Vision update would arrive at the beginning of the year, hence these expectations were set among the ownership community. Sadly, as you are aware this period has passed, and we are still waiting on the Tesla Vision update to arrive. We appreciate this continues to disappoint and we are terribly sorry for this. It is of course, within our shared best interests to have Tesla Vision ready as soon as possible. Trust you will be notified as soon as any progress is made in this regard.


Deception


Please know we do not wish to deceive our customers or prospective customers in this regard. Every customer who has an order booked receives the Tesla Vision acknowledgement and their configuration does not state that the vehicle contains Ultra-Sonic Sensors.

Technically Advanced Vehicles


The Motor Vehicle Order Agreement which you agree to adhere to at the time of purchase it states, ‘As we are continuously improving our vehicles, we may make changes, including changes to the manufacturing technologies or materials applied to, or used for, any Vehicle components, to your Vehicle to the extent those do not, at our reasonable discretion, materially affect your order”. Therefore, any software changes or improvements made to your vehicle, are done so in line with the above agreed terms and any surrounding agreements that Tesla have with you in relation to your vehicle. Like any products, changes can be made at any time.


Like you, I paid for Park Assist as part of the base cost of the car and haven't got it, and I paid extra for Enhanced Autopilot consisting of Navigation on Autopilot, which I got, and Autopark, Summon and Smart Summon which I haven't got. (And then they dropped the price by £3k from my order price . . . ) I accept that I clicked the button acknowledging that these missing features would be available and, iirc, linking to the Tesla Vision article which said and still says:


"
For a short period of time during this transition, Tesla Vision vehicles that are not equipped with USS will be delivered with some features temporarily limited or inactive, including:
  • Park Assist: alerts you of surrounding objects when the vehicle is traveling <5 mph.
  • Autopark: automatically maneuvers into parallel or perpendicular parking spaces.
  • Summon: manually moves your vehicle forward or in reverse via the Tesla app.
  • Smart Summon: navigates your vehicle to your location or location of your choice via the Tesla app.
In the near future, once these features achieve performance parity to today’s vehicles, they will be restored via a series of over-the-air software updates. All other available Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability features will be active at delivery, depending on order configuration." (My emphasis).

Now, the Consumer Rights Act 2015, being an implementation of European legislation, is horribly convoluted and complex. but s9 says:

9Goods to be of satisfactory quality​

(1)Every contract to supply goods is to be treated as including a term that the quality of the goods is satisfactory.

(2)The quality of goods is satisfactory if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactory, taking account of—

(a)any description of the goods,

(b)the price or other consideration for the goods (if relevant), and

(c)all the other relevant circumstances (see subsection (5)).

(3)The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

(b)appearance and finish;

(c)freedom from minor defects;

(d)safety;

(e)durability.

(4)The term mentioned in subsection (1) does not cover anything which makes the quality of the goods unsatisfactory—

(a)which is specifically drawn to the consumer's attention before the contract is made,

(b)where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or

(c)in the case of a contract to supply goods by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.

(5)The relevant circumstances mentioned in subsection (2)(c) include any public statement about the specific characteristics of the goods made by the trader, the producer or any representative of the trader or the producer..

(My emphasis again).

So I bought a car expecting that the features I had paid for would be made available after a short period of time and in the near future.

I concede that the contract was made when I confirmed the order on 29 October 2022 and nominally completed when I took delivery on 7 December 2022. As I write, it is 3 months and 6 days since I took delivery. I think it is at least arguable that the short period of time has elapsed and the near future is now in the past.

It seems to me that I am in a situation that is not really contemplated by the authors of the legislation.

The first line for the consumer is the short term right to reject. This is set out in s22:

"
(3)The time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject (unless subsection (4) applies) is the end of 30 days beginning with the first day after these have all happened

(a)ownership or (in the case of a contract for the hire of goods, a hire-purchase agreement or a conditional sales contract) possession of the goods has been transferred to the consumer,

(b)the goods have been delivered, and

(c)where the contract requires the trader to install the goods or take other action to enable the consumer to use them, the trader has notified the consumer that the action has been taken.


I think that it is arguable that there is a right to reject the car under the short term right. There is a weaker argument that there is a right to repair or replacement.

Similar arguments can be made for s10 - Goods to be fit for a particular purpose and s11 - Goods to be as described.

Incidentally, the online handbook has been updated today. The section on Park Assist has had these words added to the start:

This feature may be temporarily limited or inactive until it is enabled with a future software update for vehicles manufactured as of approximately October 2022.

I am a somewhat retired and no longer practising qualified and academic lawyer. Unfortunately, I don't have the time just now to do a full legal opinion, but I am happy for anyone who wants to to take these views and show them to their solicitor or otherwise run with them.

Personally, I am inclined to hang on for now as returning the car would be too much of a pain in the backside, but there will be a limit to my patience.
 
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