Decreasing rated range.

[islandbayy]

evidence is pretty conclusive that a) packs decline ~5% early in lifetime, b) then they stabilize and decline at very low rate, c) each pack is slightly different. You seem worried that new pack is slightly different from old and projecting linear decline. seems to me too early to be worried about too small a difference.

I would not say slightly different. Having less range after 9000 miles then my old pack did after 34,000 miles is astronomically different. It continues to drop. coming up to 10,000 miles on the replacement, and it's now hovering between 198 and 200.

- - - Updated - - -

OK, I see.. the concern is the rate of decline... is the rate of decline lessening at all after 9K miles?

My assumption is that this is a refurbished pack. And from those here who have had such pack replacements I believe that the stance Tesla takes is that you will receive a pack of comparable health/capacity.

Thus, I expect that the cells in the pack you got would have also already had ~34K miles worth of "wear" on them. Thus an additional couple of mile of degradation in nearly 10K wouldn't seem to be that out of the norm.

I also suspect that a refurb pack may present the car with an initial "learning curve" where the algorithm SOC estimate may need some time to acquire enough charge cycle sampling points to determine the actual capacity. This would make it appear the pack was rapidly losing capacity initially, whereas it may have been initial estimate error.

Rate of decline has not changed. Almost at 10,000 miles, and now hovering between 198 and 200 miles. Must be a referb pack.
As for it already having ~34,000 miles of ware on it already when I got it, considering i have one of the highest mileage 60 cars, it would seem unlikely. Maybe a few thousand. Especially considering its a B pack, so manufactured quite a while after my 60 A pack was, gives it even less time to have mileage put on.

Learning curve, maybe, but after almost 10,000 miles, no sign of the range drop slowing or stopping. I even had a almost shutdown in terms of how low the pack got (got home with 2 miles left, and was unloading, didnt shut my drivers door all the way and heat and seat heaters stayed on. Didnt notice until a while later the pack was wayyyy low), and charged it from almost shutdown level to 100% as I had a lot of driving this holiday weekend. Weather was Abnormally warm, and charged at a high amperage. That gave a perfect time for it to measure power going back into the pack. It replenished ~54 kW roughly. In comparison, When this pack was new, a 100% charge from charge now would consume about 63kW.

 

[scaesare]

Rate of decline has not changed. Almost at 10,000 miles, and now hovering between 198 and 200 miles. Must be a referb pack.

Almost assuredly unless you were specifically told otherwise. Tesla has stated that the will provide replacements that are refurb's of approximately equivalent capacity. Again, I don't believe your characterizing your replacement pack as only having "10,000" miles of wear is directly comparable to a new pack with 10K miles of wear. The replacement pack will have already had diminished capacity, although it may have taken a while for that to be manifested.

As for it already having ~34,000 miles of ware on it already when I got it, considering i have one of the highest mileage 60 cars, it would seem unlikely. Maybe a few thousand. Especially considering its a B pack, so manufactured quite a while after my 60 A pack was, gives it even less time to have mileage put on.

We have no idea what goes into to refurbishing a pack. For all we know, they could swap in battery modules/cells from other failed packs. Or they could be cells/modules that had less miles on them but demonstrated similar wear due to temperature extremes, charging extremes, etc...

Learning curve, maybe, but after almost 10,000 miles, no sign of the range drop slowing or stopping. I even had a almost shutdown in terms of how low the pack got (got home with 2 miles left, and was unloading, didnt shut my drivers door all the way and heat and seat heaters stayed on. Didnt notice until a while later the pack was wayyyy low), and charged it from almost shutdown level to 100% as I had a lot of driving this holiday weekend. Weather was Abnormally warm, and charged at a high amperage. That gave a perfect time for it to measure power going back into the pack. It replenished ~54 kW roughly. In comparison, When this pack was new, a 100% charge from charge now would consume about 63kW.

In addition to the obvious issue of a 60kWh pack drawing more than 60kWh of energy, there's the issue of the understood "buffer" that prevents the pack form "bricking". Thus it would seem that your 63kWh charge must have some additional energy draw somewhere. I suspect the two charge sessions are not directly comparable. If anything I'd suspect the 54 kWh session to be closer to real-world capacity for a 60kWh pack

 

[islandbayy]

Read again what I have written.

Almost assuredly unless you were specifically told otherwise. Tesla has stated that the will provide replacements that are refurb's of approximately equivalent capacity. Again, I don't believe your antagonizing your replacement pack as only having "10,000" miles of wear is directly comparable to a new pack with 10K miles of wear. The replacement pack will have already had diminished capacity, although it may have taken a while for that to be manifested.




We have no idea what goes into to refurbishing a pack. For all we know, they could swap in battery modules/cells from other failed packs. Or they could be cells/modules that had less miles on them but demonstrated similar wear due to temperature extremes, charging extremes, etc...



In addition to the obvious issue of a 60kWh pack drawing more than 60kWh of energy, there's the issue of the understood "buffer" that prevents the pack form "bricking". Thus it would seem that your 63kWh charge must have some additional energy draw somewhere. I suspect the two charge sessions are not directly comparable. If anything I'd suspect the 54 kWh session to be closer to real-world capacity for a 60kWh pack

You make some good points.
The drawing of more then 60kW of energy comes from the charging inefficiency. Had the same experience with my original pack.
Well see. Again, I'm not complaining about the range it self (yet). It's the rate in which the range is dropping.

 

[themacs]

8,100 miles and 238 miles showing at 80%

 

[qwk]

Can some of you guys with newer cars, on FW 6.0 post your IDEAL max charge numbers? Mine is 299, which is surprising since new is supposed to be 300.

 

[tomas]

8,100 miles and 238 miles showing at 80%

no way. It's either not 80% or not rated miles.

 

[taurusking]

I bought an inventory car in Oct 2014. First few charges during warm weather showed 240miles at 90%.


Had the car for month and half now. Odometer reading is close to 10,000 miles

90% charge every day yields 230 miles +... ( I say plus because I get 2-3 miles initially when I am driving before the rated miles drop ...so I am assuming 233 miles).

 

[markb]

Some observations from the owner (ex-owner, really) of a late, great 40 that was totaled by a falling tree a couple of weeks ago. (Need an extra charging cable, anybody?)

For those new to the game, Tesla originally marketed and took deposits on cars with three battery sizes (40, 60 and 85), but then decided not to manufacture 40's. Those who had ordered 40's received 60 kWh battery packs, limited by software to charge at a maximum of 72%.

Most, if not all, 40 owners saw their maximum rated (in conjunction with ideal) charge drop significantly over the first year of ownership. In my case, from the spec'ed 140 rated miles to approximately 116 rated miles. After a major software release which was, I believe, in the spring of this year, rated (and ideal) miles increased dramatically, in my case back up to 139 miles. That software release also dropped my maximum allowable charge % to 68.

So my battery was never charged above 72%, and for the last 6 months of its life was never charged above 68%.

Since that software update, my maximum rated range generally hovered between 137 and 139, with an occasional 140 and one 144. There was no discernible reason for the differing max rated ranges I was able to charge to. Shortly prior to its untimely death, my car was charging between 135 and 137, probably due to the drop in overnight temperatures here in the northeast. I had come to ignore max charge discrepancies of 2-3 miles, and believe they are essentially meaningless.

I am taking possession of a demo 60 in a couple of weeks. Once you go Tesla, you can never go back.

Anyway, take this for what its worth.

 

[glhs272]

Some observations from the owner (ex-owner, really) of a late, great 40 that was totaled by a falling tree a couple of weeks ago. (Need an extra charging cable, anybody?)

For those new to the game, Tesla originally marketed and took deposits on cars with three battery sizes (40, 60 and 85), but then decided not to manufacture 40's. Those who had ordered 40's received 60 kWh battery packs, limited by software to charge at a maximum of 72%.

Most, if not all, 40 owners saw their maximum rated (in conjunction with ideal) charge drop significantly over the first year of ownership. In my case, from the spec'ed 140 rated miles to approximately 116 rated miles. After a major software release which was, I believe, in the spring of this year, rated (and ideal) miles increased dramatically, in my case back up to 139 miles. That software release also dropped my maximum allowable charge % to 68.

So my battery was never charged above 72%, and for the last 6 months of its life was never charged above 68%.

Since that software update, my maximum rated range generally hovered between 137 and 139, with an occasional 140 and one 144. There was no discernible reason for the differing max rated ranges I was able to charge to. Shortly prior to its untimely death, my car was charging between 135 and 137, probably due to the drop in overnight temperatures here in the northeast. I had come to ignore max charge discrepancies of 2-3 miles, and believe they are essentially meaningless.

I am taking possession of a demo 60 in a couple of weeks. Once you go Tesla, you can never go back.

Anyway, take this for what its worth.

Sorry to hear about the untimely death of your S40. Thanks for posting your latest range updates with it. I remember you were having issues with it for a while.

 

[aaron0k]

Some observations from the owner (ex-owner, really) of a late, great 40 that was totaled by a falling tree a couple of weeks ago. (Need an extra charging cable, anybody?)

For those new to the game, Tesla originally marketed and took deposits on cars with three battery sizes (40, 60 and 85), but then decided not to manufacture 40's. Those who had ordered 40's received 60 kWh battery packs, limited by software to charge at a maximum of 72%.

Most, if not all, 40 owners saw their maximum rated (in conjunction with ideal) charge drop significantly over the first year of ownership. In my case, from the spec'ed 140 rated miles to approximately 116 rated miles. After a major software release which was, I believe, in the spring of this year, rated (and ideal) miles increased dramatically, in my case back up to 139 miles. That software release also dropped my maximum allowable charge % to 68.

So my battery was never charged above 72%, and for the last 6 months of its life was never charged above 68%.

Since that software update, my maximum rated range generally hovered between 137 and 139, with an occasional 140 and one 144. There was no discernible reason for the differing max rated ranges I was able to charge to. Shortly prior to its untimely death, my car was charging between 135 and 137, probably due to the drop in overnight temperatures here in the northeast. I had come to ignore max charge discrepancies of 2-3 miles, and believe they are essentially meaningless.

I am taking possession of a demo 60 in a couple of weeks. Once you go Tesla, you can never go back.

Anyway, take this for what its worth.

I've had the same experience with my 40. Down to 116, then the SW upgrade; now tops to 136 always. I thought when I changed from the 19" Goodyear's to the Michelin Primacy I might gain something; however I got no increase.


I wonder if any other 40 owners have opted to uncap/upgrade? Tesla still wants $11,000 - they don't seem to want to pro-rate it either. I suspect it might be better math to sell the 40 and buy a used 60?

 

[Gear]

I've had the same experience with my 40. Down to 116, then the SW upgrade; now tops to 136 always. I thought when I changed from the 19" Goodyear's to the Michelin Primacy I might gain something; however I got no increase.


I wonder if any other 40 owners have opted to uncap/upgrade? Tesla still wants $11,000 - they don't seem to want to pro-rate it either. I suspect it might be better math to sell the 40 and buy a used 60?

Are you saying you expected it to charge to a higher number than 136 when you put new tires on? Or did you just not see an improvement in Wh/mi?

 

[markb]

Also, my car always dropped the charge down to 30 amps when at home, where I charged 99% of the time. (When I charged at other locations, it charged at 40 amps.)

Sorry to hear about the untimely death of your S40. Thanks for posting your latest range updates with it. I remember you were having issues with it for a while.

Thanks. Yeah, the issues all had to do with decreasing range.

Its loss was a pretty distressing experience. From a purely financial perspective, however, considering the tax credits on both the old and new cars, the excellent price of the demo I am getting, and the unexpectedly high valuation put on my totaled car, it actually worked out pretty well.

 

[jerry33]

Also, my car always dropped the charge down to 30 amps when at home, where I charged 99% of the time. (When I charged at other locations, it charged at 40 amps.)

If it drops down to 30 amps all the time, get your electrician to check out the wiring to the 14-50. It could be that the breaker is bad or the connections are no longer tight. If it only drops down occasionally, it could be the utility power in your area.

 

[markb]

If it drops down to 30 amps all the time, get your electrician to check out the wiring to the 14-50. It could be that the breaker is bad or the connections are no longer tight. If it only drops down occasionally, it could be the utility power in your area.

Thanks, but just noticed that Tesla's latest installation guide for the nema 14-50 outlet specifies 6 awg wire for "installations under 100 feet". I am pretty sure that was not there when we did the installation, which uses 6 awg wire, but runs close to 200' from the breaker box. It runs cool, and charging at 21 mph at 30 amp was never a problem for us, so I think we'll leave well enough alone. The electrician, whom I trust, did double-check all of the connections once we saw the drop from 40 to 30 amps.

 

[dalamchops]

Recently went on a short trip, and I range charged it once before leaving. Rated Range on 90% dropped from 179 usually to now 176. Started at 184 new, and now at 10k miles. (MS60)

 

[scaesare]

I guess I really should start a thread that's entitled "Increasing rated range"...

My 70% charge hit 177 miles this morning. It's gradually been rising from the 172-173 it was a few months ago.

 

[mknox]

I guess I really should start a thread that's entitled "Increasing rated range"...

My 70% charge hit 177 miles this morning. It's gradually been rising from the 172-173 it was a few months ago.

I noticed my drop when I was charging to 70% and ending my day at 30%. When I did a 90% or Full Charge, I was shocked to see how much I had lost. When the car was new(er) I'd get about 239 Rated Miles at 90% but after my summer of 70 to 30% noticed I was only getting 218 Rated Miles at 90%.

Mine did creep back up over several months charging daily to 90%, but the best I can get is 221 Rated Miles (at 90%) and 245 (at 100%) now.

 

[David99]

My rate range at 100% charge went down 6% after 7 months / 30k miles. Though when I compared a full discharge (from a full charge to empty) when the car was new to now, the capacity loss is only 2.5%. In other words, don't get fooled by the 'rated range' number thinking it would tell you how much the battery aged.

 

[JohnQ]

I noticed my drop when I was charging to 70% and ending my day at 30%. When I did a 90% or Full Charge, I was shocked to see how much I had lost. When the car was new(er) I'd get about 239 Rated Miles at 90% but after my summer of 70 to 30% noticed I was only getting 218 Rated Miles at 90%.

Mine did creep back up over several months charging daily to 90%, but the best I can get is 221 Rated Miles (at 90%) and 245 (at 100%) now.

You're right where I am with 20 months and 26,000 miles. 223 miles at 90% and 245 at 100%

I've seen a similar reduction in available energy from the pack during a 100% to near 0% discharge but it's been a while since I've done that.

 

[ken830]

Over the last couple of months, I've switched from 80% to 90% nightly charge and my range has decreased dramatically. I'm only getting 180ish miles of rated range now at 90%. Did a 100% charge and it's at 209 miles! Did my 85kWh turn into a 60kWh?!?