Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Elon Musk tweets software upgrade will increase P85D range

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
as shown in my link a few posts ago P85D was indeed listed as 285 after a few weeks up from the initial 275.

It's not the P85D number I was pointing out. Some poeple are claiming the old S85 single motor was listed as 285 and I've never seen that. I saw

S60 208 miles range 5.9 sec 0-60 120 mph
S85 265 miles range 5.4 sec 0-60 125 mph
S85D 295 miles range 5.2 sec 0-60 155 mph
P85D 275 miles range 3.2 sec 0-60 155 mph

I've never seen the single motor S85 with a higher range than the P85D before they took these 65mph numbers down and went with EPA.
 
I think wk057 and others are seeing numbers around 380. So a significant decrease in range.

let's not forget Elon's tweet a couple of days ago that led to this thread being created... whatever efficiency anyone is seeing in the P85D now will be improved later.

User Actions
Following

Elon MuskVerified account@elonmusk
Software update to achieve max efficiency (going to full idle on 2nd motor) is not out yet. Range of P85D should then closely match P85+.
 
New Footnote on P85D Order Page!

Check out this new footnote spotted at the bottom of the Tesla order page... VERY interesting!


note.jpg
 
OK everyone, I've been reading this and all the other P85D threads with a lot of interest.

Here's some lines of thought that I hope all you brilliant minds have some good input on:

1. The Normal mode coming in a software update will give the P85D the same range as a P85+, right? Elon also talks about "idling the other motor". The 85D will have two of the front (small) motors and mainly due to this (+lower weight, however weight is mostly negligible) better highway range. Hence the front motor due to size, gearing or a combination thereof is more efficient at highway speeds, right? So what I don't get is that in the current Sport and Insane modes, where the rear motor isn't "idling" how come range isn't on par with a P85+??? I mean just idling the front motor would mean the car should drive like an RWD P85+, right???

2. Seeing the range people have been getting I think assigning an average of 350 Wh/mile to a P85D is kind and 300 Wh/mile to a P85+ reasonable. So that's 50 Wh/mile more. Going 65 mph for one hours means an additional 3250 Wh = 3,25 kWh gone to something else than propelling the car. It must have been converted to heat right? Likely in the motors right? So are the front and rear motors somehow ina way "working against each other" in Sport and Insane modes???

3. Perhaps idling a motor means supplying it with just enough power to spin without really contributing to going forward where as now the motors are somehow "braking" against each other???

4. Has anyone with a P85D seen any sign of heat build up? (Though 3 kWh in one hour should be no problem to dissipate)?
 
Check out this new footnote spotted at the bottom of the Tesla order page... VERY interesting!


View attachment 67008

happy to see that they understand customers are disappointed. great to see this.

for a couple more months, then, the car remains an unfinished product. after that, it becomes what was promised.

Oh boo hoo hoo... Why doesn't my Aventador get 40mpg?

i agree, esp. since that time the lambo CEO got on stage and promised fuel economy rivalling the prius
 
It's not the P85D number I was pointing out. Some poeple are claiming the old S85 single motor was listed as 285 and I've never seen that. I saw

S60 208 miles range 5.9 sec 0-60 120 mph
S85 265 miles range 5.4 sec 0-60 125 mph
S85D 295 miles range 5.2 sec 0-60 155 mph
P85D 275 miles range 3.2 sec 0-60 155 mph

I've never seen the single motor S85 with a higher range than the P85D before they took these 65mph numbers down and went with EPA.

The numbers have changed several times and I wish I'd saved screenshots of them. What you're posting above was certainly the situation at one point. Way back then I pointed out the the S60 and S85 were EPA numbers and the others didn't say what test methodology was used. Later Tesla updated the page to say at a steady 65 mph to the D numbers and added new numbers for the S60 and S85 at a steady 65 mph. Now those numbers are gone and all the models list EPA numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

We have some hyper OCD people that really don't understand the the EPA changes their rating criteria on a whim. If you are not comfortable being an early adopter - let other people who understand product development and incremental improvement be the beta testers and then wait to see if you are OK with reviews.

Frankly I dont trust any of the EPA ratings - none have every been anywhere near what the potential of the car could be if driven with care. For example EPA said my Diesel Golf would only get 40 MPG, I could easily get 52 MPG on the highway driving it like i stole it. On the other hand my Ford Fusion Hybrid was rated at over 41 MPG, and I can never get it over 36 unless I drove it to be rear ended. (suspect EPA doesn't want us driving diesels so their test procedures were tweaked to benefit the hybrid).

The EPA does not change their criteria on a whim. This idea has been perpetuated around this and other forums as though it is a fact. The last significant changes to the mileage/range test procedures happened mid 2011 when the changes for the 2013 model year were adopted and published in final form in the Federal Register. At a minimum a change in the regulations requires following a long procedure that includes public comment and publication in the Federal Register. What does happen is that there are ambiguities in the standards. Technology changes and the standards can not anticipate every change.

It's important to remember that these are laboratory tests. They are designed to be repeatable and consistent tests that can be done across a wide variety of cars. The numbers are there to be compared with other vehicles that you might buy. They are not there to guarantee you a certain efficiency. It is impossible to model each persons driving behavior in an accurate way.

With respect to your Golf and Ford Fusion, you may be unaware but the standards for the EPA tests changed dramatically starting with the 2008 model year. You don't say what year these vehicles were but I wouldn't be surprised if the Golf wasn't from before that. In 2008 they added 3 more drive cycles (cold with the heater, hot with the air conditioner and high speed driving) in an attempt to more accurately model real world experiences. One of the driving reasons for this is that hybrid cars were showing significantly higher mileage than they would get in real world scenarios. Largely because the test was tilted towards low speed city and rural driving and not interestate driving. Hybrids excelled in those conditions, but did worse in the interestate driving that many people actually do now.

With respect to your Ford, that car many have been one of the cars that Ford got in trouble with the EPA for overstating the mileage on. They had multiple vehicles built on the same platform, but with different bodies. The rules as currently written do not consider the body and important factor and as such they can test one body style of a given platform. This meant that some of the vehicles got considerably less mileage because their body style was less aerodynamic. The EPA is currently considering updating what constitutes a required vehicle configuration. Ford made payments to impacted owners (several hundred dollars).

There will never be a perfect rating system.
 
This is the first I've heard of this. I'm pretty sure the P85 EPA sticker reflects an actual EPA test done by Tesla. If not, can you point to a source for this information or an EPA guideline that would exempt the P85/+ from EPA testing based upon number of units delivered? I just don't believe this, sorry.

Here are the posts I was referring to:

Range Reduced on Dual Motor Configs? - Page 21

As I mentioned before the Model S 85, P85 and P85+ are all the same car as far as the vehicle configuration is defined by the regulations. The P85D since it has a different motor configuration than any other Model S is a separate vehicle as far as the regulations are concerned. Since the P and P+ are just options, Tesla only needs to include options that more than 33% of a vehicle configuration will be delivered with.

Range Reduced on Dual Motor Configs? - Page 16

I'm sure some people are wondering why the P85D has separate EPA numbers for 21" wheels while other vehicles do not. I spent some time digging into what they have to test and when. In the process I came across regulations that say they must include options if the manufacturer expects more than 33% of the vehicles made to include them. I'd guess that Tesla had to do the 21" wheels for the P85D as a result. The 85 kWh RWD vehicles could all be classified together because the vehicle configurations (according to the things the regulations care about) are the same. It lists off things like the Engine, Transmission, etc... As far as I can tell the vehicle configuration code isn't oriented towards electric vehicles and as such doesn't mention the inverter. So as far as the regulations are concerned the S85, P85, P85+ are all the same vehicle. Since most of the 85 kWh vehicles weren't ordered as P85, P85+ or with 21" wheels, Tesla didn't have to include that in the configuration they tested.

Also as far as I can tell there is no regulation requiring Tesla to retest every model year. Only when the vehicle configuration changes is retesting required. So I believe that the 85D and P85D are the first times Tesla has had to retest since the Model S first was tested in 2012.

Since @breser did this research and not me, I can't cite the original source. But since what is stated is based on thorough research rather than speculation, I believe it.
 
This is the first I've heard of this. I'm pretty sure the P85 EPA sticker reflects an actual EPA test done by Tesla. If not, can you point to a source for this information or an EPA guideline that would exempt the P85/+ from EPA testing based upon number of units delivered? I just don't believe this, sorry.

I read the Code of Federal Regulations that documents what is required. I was looking to try and understand when Tesla would have to retest, at the time I believed they'd have to re-test every model year. What I found was far different than this. They only have to test a given vehicle configuration once. A vehicle configuration is made up of certain parts such as the engine, transmission, and so on. Any vehicle that shares the same components that make up the vehicle configuration is the same vehicle as far as the EPA is concerned. Those components that make up a vehicle configuration is not in the window sticker requirements (which have been updated for Electric Vehicles). Instead it points at the definitions used in the emission standards, which of course are not oriented toward an electric vehicle whatsoever. In fact the only pieces of a vehicle component that apply to a Model S is the engine (if you presume that is the motor) and the weight. As such from a vehicle configuration standpoint the S85, P85 and P85+ are all the same vehicle. They only differ by an inverter, suspension and wheels (none of which are part of the vehicle configuration as defined by the law). As far as the EPA is concerned these are merely options on the same vehicle. Tesla actually treats this the same way with respect to the resale value guarantee (though going one step further since the S85 is just an option of an S60). The S60 is separate here due to the weight differences and probably Tesla needing to explain the differences between an S60 and S85.

The question then becomes what option have to be on the test vehicle. Again the emission standards determine this. They list some options as being required on the test vehicle if they are offered all (e.g. Air conditioning). But most options are only required if they are expected to be equipped on more than 33% of the vehicles. As long as fewer than 33% of the vehicles have a given option they are not obligated to include it in the test vehicle. Since the P85 and P85+ are just options, as long as the percentage of those vehicles against the whole of S85, P85 and P85+ vehicles doesn't reach 33% then they aren't included on the test vehicle. However, if they would reach those numbers you shouldn't see a separate rating for them, rather you should see the S85 rating lower.

The P85D and the 85D however, each have a different motor configuration, thus (if assuming an engine is equivalent to the motor) each are to be treated as independent vehicle configurations. This explains why Tesla is quoting the test results for the 21" wheel configuration. It's probably safe to assume that more than 33% of the P85D vehicles shipped with 21" wheels. Thus the window sticker shows the results with the 21" wheels, even on cars with 19" wheels. Tesla however, initially published both on their website and has since updated it to show the 250 number with an asterisk saying 21" wheels decrease the range by 3%. My guess would be they got approval from the EPA to do this because it made the comparison on the website misleading since all the other vehicles had 19" wheels. But they still have to use the 21" wheel numbers on the window sticker.

I haven't bothered to cite the links to the CFR sections that define all this. Mostly because it's Christmas afternoon and I don't really want to spend Christmas digging through the CFR to find the proper cites. If you really want them I'll dig them up for you later, but I can assure you this is there. If you want to find it yourself, start with CFR Title 40, Part 600 and follow the references to the other parts of the regulations:
eCFR Code of Federal Regulations
 
One of the driving reasons for this is that hybrid cars were showing significantly higher mileage than they would get in real world scenarios. Largely because the test was tilted towards low speed city and rural driving and not interestate driving. Hybrids excelled in those conditions, but did worse in the interestate driving that many people actually do now.

I never had any trouble making the original hybrid numbers. The real problem was that people focus on the city number (60 mpg) as being what they should get, instead of the combined number (55 mph). Also the Prius was likely the first car that they [meaning purchasers] drove which actually told them what they were getting (whether they wanted to know or not--it shows up in several places). I noticed a big difference in the attitudes of those who had kept logbooks in their previous cars and those who hadn't. Some people were even shocked that they got less mpg in the winter--they really had never paid any attention to it before, even though it happens in every car. Of course, 2% (or 5% or 10%) of 60 looks a lot bigger than 2% of 20.
 
You somehow gave the S85 20 extra miles range. The old numbers were

S60 208 miles range 5.9 sec 0-60 120 mph
S85 265 miles range 5.4 sec 0-60 125 mph
S85D 295 miles range 5.2 sec 0-60 155 mph
P85D 275 miles range 3.2 sec 0-60 155 mph

You are mixing EPA numbers (208 and 265) with constant 65 mph numbers (275 and 295). The comparable constant 65mph number for the S85, published previously on the Tesla website, was 285 miles.

Here is a screen shot from when those numbers were still on the Tesla site (thanks @darthy001 for the link):

S8565mph_zpsa3700fb7.gif



- - - Updated - - -

I read the Code of Federal Regulations that documents what is required.
<snip>
I haven't bothered to cite the links to the CFR sections that define all this. Mostly because it's Christmas afternoon and I don't really want to spend Christmas digging through the CFR to find the proper cites. If you really want them I'll dig them up for you later, but I can assure you this is there. If you want to find it yourself, start with CFR Title 40, Part 600 and follow the references to the other parts of the regulations:
eCFR Code of Federal Regulations

Thank you for taking the time to do all of this research. It allows us to deal with facts rather than speculation.
 
if you want to put tesla cars on the same reliability level as GM cars, thats your choice. As a tesla fan, i hesitate to do that, myself.

Certainly that's out of context and not the point, but if you like I can pick any car brand and find a model (or 2, or 3) that fits the same scenario some people want to get all up in arms about and pretend it's wholly a Tesla thing.
 
This appears to be extremely difficult for Tesla. I'm not sure why Tesla is constantly releasing products that are unfinished and incomplete. Yet it continues to claim that it is "production constrained". If you are production constrained and can sell all the cars that you make, would it have killed you to wait a couple of months on the D launch until it was truly ready? It seems like Elon's enthusiasm gets way ahead of reality and there is nobody at Tesla to tell him no, you need to wait.

Not killed, but it would have looked bad. The production issues have held back earnings, so releasing the D and getting some high ASP sales and upgrades is going to keep cash flow under control. Share price isn't such a big deal, but Tesla still needs to get all the cell component manufacturers on board for the Gigafactory. And if you want to sell AWD, the best time is winter.
 
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't the EPA just publish numbers for the Tesla at only 90% of the battery potential? My reference to making changes really deals with that specifically. I don't find that to be a fair assessment of long range travel in the Tesla - my numbers are far better (in good weather) and far worse in extreme cold weather.
The Golf did far better than the Fusion on all fronts and if I didn't have HOV benefits - I would have dumped the Fusion. Even with the draconian pollution controls (Tier 2 BIN 5) I would take the Diesel Golf over that Fusion.

If they made a hybrid Diesel, I probably wouldn't own a Tesla today - the Hybrid diesel would be great in the city and great on the highway.

The numbers have changed several times and I wish I'd saved screenshots of them. What you're posting above was certainly the situation at one point. Way back then I pointed out the the S60 and S85 were EPA numbers and the others didn't say what test methodology was used. Later Tesla updated the page to say at a steady 65 mph to the D numbers and added new numbers for the S60 and S85 at a steady 65 mph. Now those numbers are gone and all the models list EPA numbers.







- - - Updated - - -



The EPA does not change their criteria on a whim. This idea has been perpetuated around this and other forums as though it is a fact. The last significant changes to the mileage/range test procedures happened mid 2011 when the changes for the 2013 model year were adopted and published in final form in the Federal Register. At a minimum a change in the regulations requires following a long procedure that includes public comment and publication in the Federal Register. What does happen is that there are ambiguities in the standards. Technology changes and the standards can not anticipate every change.

It's important to remember that these are laboratory tests. They are designed to be repeatable and consistent tests that can be done across a wide variety of cars. The numbers are there to be compared with other vehicles that you might buy. They are not there to guarantee you a certain efficiency. It is impossible to model each persons driving behavior in an accurate way.

With respect to your Golf and Ford Fusion, you may be unaware but the standards for the EPA tests changed dramatically starting with the 2008 model year. You don't say what year these vehicles were but I wouldn't be surprised if the Golf wasn't from before that. In 2008 they added 3 more drive cycles (cold with the heater, hot with the air conditioner and high speed driving) in an attempt to more accurately model real world experiences. One of the driving reasons for this is that hybrid cars were showing significantly higher mileage than they would get in real world scenarios. Largely because the test was tilted towards low speed city and rural driving and not interestate driving. Hybrids excelled in those conditions, but did worse in the interestate driving that many people actually do now.

With respect to your Ford, that car many have been one of the cars that Ford got in trouble with the EPA for overstating the mileage on. They had multiple vehicles built on the same platform, but with different bodies. The rules as currently written do not consider the body and important factor and as such they can test one body style of a given platform. This meant that some of the vehicles got considerably less mileage because their body style was less aerodynamic. The EPA is currently considering updating what constitutes a required vehicle configuration. Ford made payments to impacted owners (several hundred dollars).

There will never be a perfect rating system.
 
No, the 90% rating was a theory as to why the range dropped so much for the P85D. Now that we have some real world numbers, I think the 90% theory is out the window. 90% happened to the 2013 Leaf because it was an average of 80% and 100% charge modes.
 
So anyone care to guess where those extra 50-100 Wh/mile (compared to a RWD Model S) are going (3,25 to 6,5 kWh per hour of going 65 mph)??? We know they're not going towards propelling the car. Also, we know the added weight creates only slightly increased friction, nothing near 50-100 Wh/mile.
 
The question that has me scratching my head is, if Tesla knows the PD has better Wh-Hr/mile efficiency on the highway then they have, and have tested, firmware that drives both motors such that they can achieve that efficiency. If they have it, why not ship it on the first product and avoid this discussion in the first place? If they have based their public statements on modeling and not end configuration testing they would be leaving themselves open to not meeting target. That would seem to be a very high risk path for little to no gain.

BTW Johan, my focus goes where your's does. I really do not care about EPA range and battery charge mile/hour performance. There is no indication that Tesla has changed the battery or the on board chargers. All I really want to see is how the PD performs in the exact same driving regime as my previous P+ and, more specifically, that the PD matches or uses less Wh-Hr/mile on the highway.