FSD Beta 10.69

[nvx1977]

I didn't know Tesla drivers went to Autozone....

they have great deals on wiper fluid.

 

[sleepydoc]

@AlanSubie4Life - had another useless drive on the way home from work this evening. 16 miles, 24 minutes. Started on local streets, then a parkway, then turned into a highway, exited and merged into another highway, then the rest of the way home. (The highways were FSD, not NoA). Included some road construction, too. Zero disengagements and two interventions. The interventions were stepping on the accelerator at a stop sign and at a yield. Based on past experience it would have eventually managed both but there were other cars waiting that I didn’t want to inconvenience. The only other intervention was to tap the turn signal stalk to get the car to pass a slower car on the highway, but that was strictly a preference issue so I don’t count that.

But yes, FSDb is pretty useless.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

FSDb is pretty useless.

Awesome. Take a video! My 20-minute 16-mile drive home is also pretty good. If I take the correct route I can usually make it with just two or three interventions (and quite a lot of accelerator work, requests to change lanes, and numerous speed adjustments). But I don’t find that it is making my drive easier or smoother (except for the freeway part where I think it is quite good, except for rubber banding).

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Definitely not surprised that highways do well - those were one of the places I’d expect it to do moderately well.

 

[jeremymc7]

From the signage, I'd conclude that there is no straight light because all lanes turn left or right. Probably no distinction between left and right at this intersection since the center lane is permitted to go left or right. Probably also why the lights I see are not arrows.

Actually most streets are straight through. But the 5th way at an angle to all the others screws up things for several other directions.

The initial picture is obviously the most complicated one. But some of the others can be almost as confusing.

 

[powertoold]

 

[jeremymc7]

they have great deals on wiper fluid.

And they’ll put it in for free.

 

[DarkForest]

they have great deals on wiper fluid.

I was literally at Autozone just 3 days ago to buy wiper fluid lol. It was $10 cheaper than ordering on Amazon.

My M3 hit 10k miles, and it’s the first maintenance I’ve had to do on it. Although I really should get the tires rotated at some point…

 

[dgatwood]

Tesla obviously needs to work on these cases. How to fix it is Tesla's problem.

The right way to fix it is to make the lights not be ambiguous in the first place. Put a sign below it that says SR17 NB or LEFT TO LINCOLN or some identifier that is uniquely identifiable as to what direction on what street that light is for. But good luck getting that to happen.

 

[thewishmaster]

Few more observations:
* Yesterday I was stopped behind a cement mixer at a red light with 1 regular lane to my right and 2 left turn lanes to the left; the beta forgot it was waiting for the light and decided to pass the cement mixer on the left through one of the left turn lanes where other cars were also waiting for their light. We weren’t even waiting long at that point. Haven’t seen it be so impatient since early 10.x builds.
* Couple short drives today - absolutely unbearably slow at 4-way stops. Even with the nearest car about a block behind it still sits for too long before taking its right of way. Much longer than even the slowest human drivers in the area. Used the accelerator pedal with probably 90% of the stop signs I encountered today. I really hope they do something about this in 10.69.2. 10.12.2 wasn’t perfect but it reacted much faster around here.
* One 4-way stop, going straight, it decided to creep out into the middle of the intersection (the creep line was probably 1/3rd of the way into the intersection). No other cars around. Accelerator override again.
* On the bright side there are a few of blocks around here where the car kept adopting a 15 mph stop limit even with the latest maps. With 10.69.1.1 one of these changed to 25, the other to 20, both of which are perfect given the geography. No more manually changing speeds around my neighborhood. Don’t know why these changed.
* Another slight improvement - one of the intersections I crossed today was one where 10.12.2 and earlier would stop way short of the stop sign. today it rolled up to the line confidently.
* Finally, my garage was haunted by various semi trucks according to the visualizations, including a neighbor’s bicycle which would transform into a semi truck for some reason. Today it looked fine. The bicycle was marked as a motorcycle though. Maybe the haunted trucks left.

 

[powertoold]

You guys with weird drives, have you tried to clean all your cameras with a few drops of water on a napkin?

 

[Supcom]

The right way to fix it is to make the lights not be ambiguous in the first place. Put a sign below it that says SR17 NB or LEFT TO LINCOLN or some identifier that is uniquely identifiable as to what direction on what street that light is for. But good luck getting that to happen.

That's all very nice, but an AV must take the world as it is.

 

[wknickless]

That's all very nice, but an AV must take the world as it is.

Ah yes, but lawyers.

Maybe when municipalities get hit with slam-dunk liability lawsuits (AV camera video showing the traffic controls out of spec and obviously ambiguous or just plain misleading, leading to an AV-involved collision, where the AV manufacturer is sued and then sues the municipality in turn) they’ll take their responsibilities more seriously and do a better job of shading signals pointing towards other lanes.

Human drivers like me are too afraid to move forward when things don’t look right. AVs can only deal with what they’re presented.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Ah yes, but lawyers.

Maybe when municipalities get hit with slam-dunk liability lawsuits (AV camera video showing the traffic controls out of spec and obviously ambiguous or just plain misleading, leading to an AV-involved collision, where the AV manufacturer is sued and then sues the municipality in turn) they’ll take their responsibilities more seriously and do a better job of shading signals pointing towards other lanes.

Human drivers like me are too afraid to move forward when things don’t look right. AVs can only deal with what they’re presented.

You really think that a jury would be more sympathetic to a robot than a human?
Never going to happen. Also, the entire issue is a red herring. The actual difficult part of AV's is not the infrastructure, it's all the other road users (i.e. human drivers, cyclists, pedestrians).

 

[Buckminster]

 

[PACEMD]

You really think that a jury would be more sympathetic to a robot than a human?
Never going to happen.

A robot jury might. You know, a jury "of your peers".......

 

[GranularHail]

Ohio has this (not-so) brilliant design on a 55 mph highway. The left lane slightly splits off from the right two and a curb separates them, then you come around a corner to see 4 lights hanging over 3 lanes, none of which line up with the lanes. The right two lights are always green.

When they first deployed these, I saw a rear-ending accident here almost every day in the evening commute for months before most locals got used to it. Lots of people think if they are in the middle lane and the second light from the left is red, they should stop (aggressively from 55+ mph), while others think if they are in the middle lane and the second light from the right is green they should go.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

I didn't know Tesla drivers went to Autozone....

I actually spend more time than ever at Napa. I volunteer at a RR so I'm going there non stop getting special filters on a weekly basis. They see me pull up in the Tesla and have my commercial account open by the time I walk in the door. I do get wiper blades and fluid there also.

I came across this monstrosity the other day:

View attachment 850494


Five lanes. Left turn lane with an arrow shaped light, three forward lanes signaled by regular lights, and a single right-turn lane with two regular (non-arrow) lights. I guess the city ran out of right-arrow lights and just decided to go with two regular lights and a "Right turn signal" sign.

I was in the fourth lane from the left, and my green-light chime sounded when the right-turn signals turned green (while my lane's signal stayed red). And then it chimed again when my proper light turned green.

I read several of these posts and most boil down mistakes made by the local DOT's. there are federal laws stating how traffic signals are to be installed. It has been a long time since I've been in the business. Lights were supposed to be centered in each travel lane. Field conditions would quickly throw the code out the window, especially with the mast arm signals. One undocumented water main would shift the foundations off 3-4' and engineered signal mounts are now off the 3-4'. The lack of enforcement by inspectors doesn't help either. each pole is specifically engineered, long in advance of construction. City streets could never comply with this regulation, and play by a different set of rules.

The old issues with burnt out red lights caused the addition of two signals for each "Phase" In this case the right turn lane has two for one lane. Conflict monitors can catch a red light burnt out. this gives crews time to get out and replace it before the signals go into flash mode. Crews would just slap it up where ever they could make it look reasonable. I have one on the wrong side of the traffic pole that caused my car to stop every time.

When LED's came out all the rules seem to go out the window on directional control. They were in such a rush to get rid of incandescent bulbs, a lot of safety features were lost. They have swapped out entire signals and simply install basic units. The fancy highly restricted 3M signals that only visible one way are long gone. Deep restricting tunnel visors disappeared as well as the screen type visors. Crews are going back and making corrections but it takes time. I'm just seeing that now in my area. LED technology will need to advance to improve it further.

Tesla probably refers to a lot of these codes and has done a good job for the most part. But they will find every fault out there. Can Tesla clean up each every case? who knows. Can FSD detect the brightest light level and run with that one. "Twisted" heads hit by trucks screwed my car one time.

How do we call the local DOT offices and request they correct the traffic lights so our Self driving cars will behave properly. "Excuse me my FSD car can't navigate Oak street because both signals are visible." Can you go out and fix it?

Can you repaint the intersection near Belmont and River road? my car cant navigate the left turn any more since the turn lines have worn off."

I can see the dispatchers rolling there eye's now. Truth is it will have to be done, were going to be the first ones to complain though.

 

[JohnB007]

I finally tried commuting to the office from home using FSDb.

Just as a baseline, I normally get about 5 takeover events per direction.

- Driving right in the center of unmarked 4-lane road is mostly gone. It still drives a bit too close to the center but not to the point where the other car would complain. Interesting to see that when another car is incoming, it moves towards right by 2-3 ft. I wish if it did that all the time instead of moving over. Also it moves a bit too suddenly.

- Left turns are seriously much better. I always turned left manually, but I could see myself leaving those on now for most turns if not all.

- At the end of the little 2-lane bridge, there is a small but complex right turn that required creep. The older version failed here 100%. This version did it, pretty smooth too!

- Coming back, the same bridge turning left is equally stupid design. I was always afraid of FSDb hitting the standing car because the older version cut the corner so closely. This version actually turned just about the way I would, except for the hard acceleration after the turn. lol. It's a 2-lane bridge! Maybe I should fault city for posting the same speed limit there as everywhere else...

- Very difficult ULT left turn with 100% failure rate in the past. This turn is kinda like joining at U rather than T and you would think it's easy but it's not because there are so many cars in both directions and it's 4-lane. Shaped like an S so even messier - another stupid design. Plus, lots of humans crossing, and some cars turn right into the road I'm on. A lot for FSDb to figure out and when I was there the first time, I said this is a crazy intersection. It creeped as expected and marked all suspect cars in blue which is good. It waited just as I would then a car parked in front of us, to turn left into my road. Then that car color changed from blue to white! I knew this was trouble but I waited cautiously and my car started turn when it finally found the gap (good), except that the white car is still in front of me, standing still, about to turn into my road. Obviously a disengagement. I wonder why that car turned white when it was stationary? If it wasn't for that car, this would have been a first successful turn for FSDb.

- One more left turn on green near my subdivision. Used to take it very close to the car and also too energetically, getting close to the right curb. So I used to do this turn manually. Today, it was good, almost the same as what I would have done.

- Then the silly event. Two stops away from my home, 4-way stop crossing, no human and I'm alone. It was jerky and wasn't moving very well. This was the easiest turn of the entire trip! I did drive at 9pm so perhaps darkness had something to do with it? It handled other turns fine though. So no disengagement but I had to press accelerator.


What still sucks:

- Slows down too slowly as everyone knows. I have to manually adjust max speed well before the speed change sign appears. This is officially the most annoying feature of FSDb for me.

- I also noticed I was getting small red wheel warnings more often than usual despite using my right hand as a weight at 3 position. I always do this, so I'm used to it, but I was getting more. May be the camera is having a bad time detecting my eyes?

 

[myshenaini]

Ohio has this (not-so) brilliant design on a 55 mph highway. The left lane slightly splits off from the right two and a curb separates them, then you come around a corner to see 4 lights hanging over 3 lanes, none of which line up with the lanes. The right two lights are always green.

When they first deployed these, I saw a rear-ending accident here almost every day in the evening commute for months before most locals got used to it. Lots of people think if they are in the middle lane and the second light from the left is red, they should stop (aggressively from 55+ mph), while others think if they are in the middle lane and the second light from the right is green they should go.
View attachment 850609

All of a sudden, I feel bad for the AI team that has to work on this.

 

[bhakan]

Also, in light of this video in NY, I've realized that counting disengagements is a relatively useless metric of progress for FSD Beta. It's way too circumstantial and way too dependent on a test driver's chosen routes.

If this guy chooses a route with an obstacle that FSD Beta categorically cannot handle, he'll have a disengagement every day. And likewise if someone just happens to have a test route that doesn't pass any edge-cases, they might never have a disengagement.

The better metric is the percentage of routes (or road miles) that can be driven disengagement free. At what point can 50% of the roads in your area be driven disengagement free, 80%, 90%, 99%, etc. And then jointly, what percent of roads in the US can be driven disregard free for any given firmware version. It moves the local variability out of the error term for the metric and turns it into the metric itself.

If you watch that video from NY, he specifically says he's disengaging in order to place the car in a position where it will need to attempt a left-turn that it has previously failed to do. So many of the FSD Beta test drivers seem to have their favorite routes and road features to test.

Very true. To go to this larger USPS with parking ( as I just walk to my nearest one where parking is very difficult) about 4 miles from my place Tesla nav will always route me thro the highway which takes the same amount of time if I take local roads and at least no truck overturn or truck with hazmats on the local roads. As for the number of disengagements they both may be comparable. Near my neighborhood streets, to make this left turn on to the neighborhood street which is offset from the street on the right where there is a signal light my car fails constantly on FSDb and just cannot make the turn as it is very chaotic: cars turning from the street on the left ( street offset) who may also turn right immediately to the street I am planning to turn left, cars parked at the corner where I have to turn, pedestrians crossing that street, dog walkers, food delivery drivers keeping their doors open, cars from that neighborhood street making turns etc etc. Oh.. add to those chaos our turn restrictions during rush hour and we cannot make any of those turns from the major artery. With so much chaos I always take an earlier left turn to the neighborhood during non-rush hour which is also bad but manageable. Tesla will never choose that route even tho that's the pattern I am following.