FSD Beta v11.x

Mardak · Feb 27, 2023

swedge said:
In certain rare circumstances and within the operating limitations of FSD Beta, when the feature is engaged, the feature could potentially infringe upon local traffic laws or customs while executing certain driving maneuvers in the following conditions before some drivers may intervene: 1) traveling or turning through certain intersections during a stale yellow traffic light

Thinking a bit more about the specific context provided in the recall "before some drivers may intervene" and this example condition of "stale yellow traffic light," this seems to focus on situations where the light was already yellow. So presumably the human also could not have assessed how fresh the yellow light was, e.g., around a bend, and if FSD Beta's behavior was to assume newly detected yellow lights as "fresh" with a MUTCD minimum duration of 3 seconds, it would decide to continue traveling into the intersection before the driver could react and presumably stop for a fresh red light before entering the intersection.

The other case of "turning" and "stale" could be that FSD Beta was behind the stop line when it noticed a fresh yellow light and still decided to enter the intersection for a turn now knowing the light is stale putting the driver (and FSD Beta) in a tricky position of completing the turn from within the intersection during a steady red light. Maybe this is related to some jurisdictions, e.g., New York City, that disallow entering the intersection on a stale yellow if one would end up blocking the box/intersection?

More broadly, it seems like the recall is focused on situations where FSD Beta is deciding to move before the driver can stop it with an intervention with a focus on "infringe upon local traffic laws" as there are probably plenty of FSD Beta sudden movements that could be unsafe but not necessarily breaking laws? For example, people have concerns of 11.x single stack switching lanes on highways without NoA's notice for the driver to intervene, but NHTSA didn't require a recall for that same behavior on city streets as I suppose FSD Beta was safe enough although some might argue not comfortable enough.

Mardak · Feb 27, 2023

scottf200 said:
Perhaps this has been cleared up before but why does FSD "care"/highlight_in_blue this car turning that has ZERO impact on the FSD car?

FSD Beta is making sure that there's actually ZERO impact.

Just because a car looks like it's turning and should be turning doesn't mean it'll always do so. This is very much related to the improvements in 11.3 with AEB and red light runner improvements as in these cases, the other vehicle probably shouldn't be crossing in front of you, but FSD Beta is looking for these rare cases where someone else is likely making a moving violation and able to prevent an accident.

Just like FSD Beta is getting recalled for continuing straight from a right-turn only lane, there is a potential for a human making a right turn at a stop sign to suddenly decide they actually needed to go straight. I've definitely experienced situations where people signaled right to turn while also slowing down but ended up continuing straight.

scottf200 · Feb 27, 2023

Mardak said:
FSD Beta is making sure that there's actually ZERO impact. Just because a car looks like it's turning and should be turning doesn't mean it'll always do so. This is very much related to the improvements in 11.3 with AEB and red light runner improvements as in these cases, the other vehicle probably shouldn't be crossing in front of you, but FSD Beta is looking for these rare cases where someone else is likely making a moving violation and able to prevent an accident.

Just like FSD Beta is getting recalled for continuing straight from a right-turn only lane, there is a potential for a human making a right turn at a stop sign to suddenly decide they actually needed to go straight. I've definitely experienced situations where people signaled right to turn while also slowing down but ended up continuing straight.

I sort of understand what you are saying as even as a human I don't just believe a driver is actually turning because there turn signal is on. I wait for them to commit.

However, in the example and picture I showed the car was very much slowed down and in the MIDDLE of the turn. The FSDb car was turning right.

powertoold · Feb 27, 2023

Mardak said:
In this case, I think it's because this is a large messy intersection more than 11.3 regressing. Most intersections that do have guiding stripes probably do it only for the double left turn lane maybe just for the larger road, but here because of the increased width for the Milpitas BART lines overhead, the 8 through lanes also have the dashed lines:
View attachment 912036

Based on what I'm seeing with 25.2 vs 11.3, I'm pretty sure Tesla has reverted back to some aspects of the V9 architecture. I don't have enough motivation to do a detailed comparison, but my thought is that V11 makes more predictions based on what it actually sees, if that makes any sense. When ego is stopped, and a car passes by a curb, the certainty of the curb is more fuzzy vs the static curb of 25.2.

powertoold · Feb 27, 2023

Just look at how Lombard St looks like in V9's visualization:

Versus 10.69:

10.69 looks more like an HD-map, whereas V9's perception is more based on what it sees in front of it.

I think 11.3's Lombard St will look more like V9 than 10.69.

sleepydoc · Feb 27, 2023

kabin said:
Good observation. The red line (decel) is curious and unwanted for sure. I've noticed sometimes FSD over accelerates prior to a turn's apex and then seemingly needs to tap a deceleration which never feels good in a turn. In almost all cases the vehicle is suppose to accelerate after the apex so braking disrupts the senses.

I’d hardly call that a phantom brake - the speed didn’t decrease at all, it just quit accelerating for a fraction of a second. If I had to guess it was because the truck actually appeared to be coming over into the Tesla’s lane for a bit.

kabin · Feb 27, 2023

sleepydoc said:
I’d hardly call that a phantom brake - the speed didn’t decrease at all, it just quit accelerating for a fraction of a second. If I had to guess it was because the truck actually appeared to be coming over into the Tesla’s lane for a bit.

I just call it a needless uncomfortable deceleration. The deceleration is felt even if speed doesn't change. And the short on/off brake/throttle duration magnifies jerk.

I hope they can resolve it as it happens far too often even when no traffic is present.

bayareaever · Feb 27, 2023

No offense to anyone, but this thread is quite boring at this point. I just want to know when the heck v11 is going to wide release!

Elon’s recent silence on the matter isn’t too reassuring after missing many many ‘next week’ deadlines. Maybe he’s waiting for investor day but I assume that will be more about the future and not much about the present or near term.

I’m mostly still a believer but I’m also not surprised to hear about the recall or lawsuits. It does seem like the current hardware might be insufficient after all these delays/false starts. If that’s the case and there’s not going to be an upgrade path or some sort of trade-in program for fsd purchasers, lawsuits are definitely warranted.

The current software is fine in light/predictable traffic, but it’s mostly unusable in busy urban settings.

D Good · Feb 27, 2023

powertoold said:
Just look at how Lombard St looks like in V9's visualization:

Versus 10.69:

10.69 looks more like an HD-map, whereas V9's perception is more based on what it sees in front of it.

I think 11.3's Lombard St will look more like V9 than 10.69.

No. That’s called an overfit. They wrote code specifically for Lombard street.

powertoold · Feb 27, 2023

D Good said:
No. That’s called an overfit. They wrote code specifically for Lombard street.

Huh? I don't think you're using that word correctly in this context.

You're saying Tesla hand-coded the Lombard St visualization?

dacpdx · Feb 27, 2023

bayareaever said:
No offense to anyone, but this thread is quite boring at this point. I just want to know when the heck v11 is going to wide release!

Elon’s recent silence on the matter isn’t too reassuring after missing many many ‘next week’ deadlines. Maybe he’s waiting for investor day but I assume that will be more about the future and not much about the present or near term.

I’m mostly still a believer but I’m also not surprised to hear about the recall or lawsuits. It does seem like the current hardware might be insufficient after all these delays/false starts. If that’s the case and there’s not going to be an upgrade path or some sort of trade-in program for fsd purchasers, lawsuits are definitely warranted.

The current software is fine in light/predictable traffic, but it’s mostly unusable in busy urban settings.

Agreed. I do find the detailed discussion of AP performance interesting, even if mostly above my head, but I too mainly want to know when our update is coming.

The problem, of course, is that that is unknowable to us outsiders. Oh well.

Honestly, my fear as an HW3 owner is that, with the release of HW4, we will soon become an orphaned platform. Unless there is a major breakthrough for these various difficult cases that have been discussed here so extensively (and maybe 11.x will demonstrate this, we'll see), then, as HW4 becomes widely distributed, they will begin looking at focusing development on using the enhanced capabilites of that platform. And that makes sense- if they can crack the difficult problems on "better" hardware, then maybe they could tune it to work on HW3-- but that would mean not much in the way of updates for us until the problem is "solved".

If you think this is unlikely, remember that Tesla's production rate is continuing it's exponential increase. That's good, but it does mean that they are now adding new vehicles so fast that the existing fleet will soon be a small percentage of the total, so HW4 will quickly become the most numerous deployed vehicle.

Mardak · Feb 27, 2023

Looks like at least these 2 issues from the recall aren't fixed with 11.3. Ignoring the painted turn arrows here making a right turn from the left/straight lane (although technically the recall was for going straight…):

And turning through a red light for a stale yellow at 14mph:

Maybe for the latter, some calculation assumed it would continue at 35mph as if it were going straight through the intersection, but it didn't account for the slowing down for the turn?

For most of us waiting for 11.3, given the messaging from Tesla about the recall, it sounds like existing FSD Beta vehicles can continue to upgrade even to versions that are still subject to the recall (e.g., plenty of vehicles are still getting 10.69.25.2 from 10.69.25.0/.1 even today), so maybe that will even mean if 11.3 isn't the remedy to allow new additions to FSD Beta, many of us could still get it even with these outstanding issues.

Dewg · Feb 27, 2023

Mardak said:
Looks like at least these 2 issues from the recall aren't fixed with 11.3. Ignoring the painted turn arrows here making a right turn from the left/straight lane (although technically the recall was for going straight…):
View attachment 912154

And turning through a red light for a stale yellow at 14mph:
View attachment 912155

Maybe for the latter, some calculation assumed it would continue at 35mph as if it were going straight through the intersection, but it didn't account for the slowing down for the turn?

For most of us waiting for 11.3, given the messaging from Tesla about the recall, it sounds like existing FSD Beta vehicles can continue to upgrade even to versions that are still subject to the recall (e.g., plenty of vehicles are still getting 10.69.25.2 from 10.69.25.0/.1 even today), so maybe that will even mean if 11.3 isn't the remedy to allow new additions to FSD Beta, many of us could still get it even with these outstanding issues.

I'd loved to have seen the map with the nav route. For me, when the car is coming up on a turn, the nav route displays the lanes that are appropriate for that turn. Could the above example be a mapping disagreement - where the nav route showed the right turn was possible from that lane, and the visuals showed it was not possible creating a conflict? If the nav showed that the only right turn lane possible was the far right lane, then it's the planner that failed to put the car in the correct lane, and the correct action should have been to drive straight through the intersection and recalculate the route.

jeremymc7 · Feb 27, 2023

There’s no reason they can’t rollout more beta updates without (yet) fixing the recall.

Cars were on the road for months, year, or more for airbag recalls, seatbelt sensors, etc until parts became available and until repairs could be completed.

No reason Tesla can’t proceed to fix other known issues until they have everything in place for the recalls.

JohnB007 · Feb 28, 2023

I'm hoping that Tesla will push this release out just before the investor day event, so that Musk can announce that one stack version has been released during that event.

jabloomf1230 · Feb 28, 2023

JohnB007 said:
I'm hoping that Tesla will push this release out just before the investor day event, so that Musk can announce that one stack version has been released during that event.

If not, "His Imminence" will say it's coming in two weeks.

JulienW · Feb 28, 2023

JohnB007 said:
I'm hoping that Tesla will push this release out just before the investor day event, so that Musk can announce that one stack version has been released during that event.

Well.....it is not actually one stack ("to rule them all") but just an integrated stack since Parking Lots and ASS are still MIA. Also doubt Musk will get into the nuance of Beta versions on Investor Day since that is not even what it is supposed to be about.

JohnB007 · Feb 28, 2023

JulienW said:
Well.....it is not actually one stack ("to rule them all") but just an integrated stack since Parking Lots and ASS are still MIA. Also doubt Musk will get into the nuance of Beta versions on Investor Day since that is not even what it is supposed to be about.

I agree. But this day (I assume) is about boosting confidence of investors, so any marketing claims they can make, they probably will.

I'm just curious to see what kind of improvements this release will bring, even if it means some regression.

powertoold · Feb 28, 2023

JohnB007 said:
I'm hoping that Tesla will push this release out just before the investor day event, so that Musk can announce that one stack version has been released during that event.

There's no way they'll release 3.0. It has to be at least 3.1 until they release it. If you watch the 11.3 videos, you'll see there's a bug where the visualization constantly blanks out.

So it's at least another week before any of the OGs get 3.1.

EVNow · Feb 28, 2023

JohnB007 said:
I'm hoping that Tesla will push this release out just before the investor day event, so that Musk can announce that one stack version has been released during that event.

I don't think investors care - and Tesla knows about it. Investors (except for some retail) know robotaxi is far off. Infact every time Musk talks for a long time about FSD in investor related events, the stock price drops.

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