Good advice on cleaning the cameras. I will experiment.
They are such an important part of Autopilot I would think Tesla could check the cameras for clarity in a few minutes of driving.
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Phantom braking still an issue
- Thread starter Mr Miserable
- Start date
Good advice on cleaning the cameras. I will experiment.
They are such an important part of Autopilot I would think Tesla could check the cameras for clarity in a few minutes of driving.
kelvin 660
White SR+ with LFP battery
It seems that phantom breaking is not a common complaint in the US, according to the NHTSA website!
Check for Recalls: Vehicle, Car Seat, Tire, Equipment
Most user complaints are for 1) unintended acceleration, when parking, 2) front suspension collapse, 3) Brake issues and 4) UI screen going black
The only issue investigated by the NHTSA was unintended acceleration and their finding was;
There is no evidence of any fault in the accelerator pedal assemblies, motor control systems, or brake systems that has contributed to any of the cited incidents.
Check for Recalls: Vehicle, Car Seat, Tire, Equipment
Most user complaints are for 1) unintended acceleration, when parking, 2) front suspension collapse, 3) Brake issues and 4) UI screen going black
The only issue investigated by the NHTSA was unintended acceleration and their finding was;
There is no evidence of any fault in the accelerator pedal assemblies, motor control systems, or brake systems that has contributed to any of the cited incidents.
Phantom braking is problematic to discuss, justify and prove because there are clearly multiple possible causes of similar but likely different 'unintended slowing' scenarios.
As the vehicle software evolves, behaviour changes - both for better or worse and across the range of scenarios. Leaving somewhat haphazard discussion and speculation to a diverse group of owners relating to different vehicle varients and ages makes for a confused picture.
Incorrect to GPS based speed data.
Incorrect speed based on (something else.... changed road layout?)
Incorrect response to multi-level roadways.
Possible erroneous radar operation.
Possible AP / visual image processing.
Incorrect triggering of emergency braking.
More recently there could be incorrect recognition of speed limit signs or correct reading of irrelevant signs.
IMO it is quite possible that correct operation (from Tesla's design perspective) for example when overtaking could apply slowing that the driver regards as excessive but Tesla would deem 'normal'.
On top of all the above, it appears that there are other factors that could be causing different behaviour between US and other markets. Weather? Road layouts? Driving styles / speeds? Proximity of buildings to carriageways?
As the vehicle software evolves, behaviour changes - both for better or worse and across the range of scenarios. Leaving somewhat haphazard discussion and speculation to a diverse group of owners relating to different vehicle varients and ages makes for a confused picture.
Incorrect to GPS based speed data.
Incorrect speed based on (something else.... changed road layout?)
Incorrect response to multi-level roadways.
Possible erroneous radar operation.
Possible AP / visual image processing.
Incorrect triggering of emergency braking.
More recently there could be incorrect recognition of speed limit signs or correct reading of irrelevant signs.
IMO it is quite possible that correct operation (from Tesla's design perspective) for example when overtaking could apply slowing that the driver regards as excessive but Tesla would deem 'normal'.
On top of all the above, it appears that there are other factors that could be causing different behaviour between US and other markets. Weather? Road layouts? Driving styles / speeds? Proximity of buildings to carriageways?
michelerusso88
Member
I have had two phantom braking moments and ive only had the car less than a week its not an issue as i had the same thing on a mercedes c63 before. What i hate the most is when coming out of autopilot / FSD from taking control close to stopping the cruise control may still be enabled and it brings you to such an abrupt stop close to cars that it does not feel natural
SalisburySam
Active Member
This may be true, but here in the colonies there are lots of complaints about phantom braking. I’ve experienced it since acquiring the car 2½ years ago and still today after 59 software updates, now on v48.30. I agree it is less frequent but still happens a few times per drive. Several obvious causes have been eliminated or at least reduced over time. For example, the overhead metal bridge seems to no longer be an issue. Remaining issues include:
- passing large slower vehicle on the vehicle’s left (right in the UK?)
- nearby roads with different speed limits either too close or over-/underpasses
- whenever the hell it feels like it.
I’ve submitted a bug report each and every of the hundreds of times this has happened, but I think bug reporting is the Tesla equivalent to the door close button in an elevator/lift...placebo effect only and not really connected to anything.
The most vocal site raging about phantom braking is www.tesla.com’s forum where the rants are truly epic.
The net of all of this is that apparently phantom braking is a very hard problem to solve with existing sensor and computing hardware and the state of code today. I’m not sure it will be solved with that suite of computation...it certainly hasn’t been for me in my Model 3. I had the HW3 upgrade early last year so presumably I have the latest-and-greatest with current software and FSD since purchase.
What to do? Know this is a problem and be judicious about your use of TACC (which seems to be the culprit), especially with passengers and/or pets in the vehicle. Submit a bug report each and every time. Keep your cameras clean, all 8 of them but certainly the forward-facing ones. In any interaction with a Tesla person, reiterate the need for a dumb cruise control option. Tweet Elon, now the richest man on the planet on paper at least. And contrary to the NHTSA, know that phantom braking remains an issue of some impact and a good deal of annoyance for many, many owners.
If it makes you feel better / involved in some way!
Not even!
It really doesn't leave the car. Just updates local logs afaik that COULD be looked at on request by Tesla Service.
I had to drive 230 miles from Lancashire to London yesterday and I chose to drive my A6 rather than my M3P for a number of reasons:
- The A6 is much quieter and more refined at motorway speeds
- I couldn’t be bothered stopping to charge on the journey
- I wanted windscreen wipers that worked properly in the dark and in challenging weather conditions
- I wanted decent matrix headlights rather than the crappy lights on the M3
- I wanted to use adaptive cruise control without fear of experiencing violent phantom braking
rincewind
Member
If so, I can't see how Tesla will ever reach FSD with the current hardware. Personally, I think it's years away and with different hardware.
SalisburySam
Active Member
I’m a new owner with only 350 miles on the clock.
An issue it certainly is. I’ve tried using it and unfortunately it’s the biggest let down of the car. Positively dangerous.
Easy 200 mile journey 95% motorways cruising at 70 and down to 60 when appropriate etc.
Lane guidance very good.
Enjoyment of driving very good.
Heating very good.
Entertainment very good.
Overall experience very good.
Glad I’ve had the car.
But,,, oh dear, the car has no clue about when to and when not to brake. Is it worth mentioning to the service department when it goes in for its extensive list of build quality issues to be dealt with or am I wasting my time?
An issue it certainly is. I’ve tried using it and unfortunately it’s the biggest let down of the car. Positively dangerous.
Easy 200 mile journey 95% motorways cruising at 70 and down to 60 when appropriate etc.
Lane guidance very good.
Enjoyment of driving very good.
Heating very good.
Entertainment very good.
Overall experience very good.
Glad I’ve had the car.
But,,, oh dear, the car has no clue about when to and when not to brake. Is it worth mentioning to the service department when it goes in for its extensive list of build quality issues to be dealt with or am I wasting my time?
I'd say 'yes, absolutely. And have it added to your notes and make every other effort to officially record your issues'.
Will it result in a short term fix? Probably not. But to say nothing could be taken as you not having a problem.
But imo try to separate hard phantom braking events (likely going under bridge or along side curtain side lorry) 70 mph down to 50 or lower) from incorrect speed adjustment.
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Probably worth mentioning just to add to the pressure on Tesla but it certainly won’t result in anything. Tesla are seemingly incapable of solving this problem even though, as you have found, it can be downright dangerous.
There is new beta software being trialled by a limited number of drivers in the States, and some people are convinced that it will solve all these problems and also give true FSD sometime soon. Personally I don’t believe a word of it. Even the Musk only said it “should” solve phantom braking - doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence.
Autopilot is a bit scary..... just been out to get the papers. Tried 'navigate on Autopilot' on a bit of dual carriageway - the car went to overtake a lorry, slowed down, got halfway into the manoeuvre and then swerved back behind the lorry. Felt very 'sketchy' as the Americans might say. Also stopped at pedestrian lights that were on green, had been on green and stayed on green. No reason to stop at all - nobody about. I took over before doing the full stop.
Navigation is also a bit suspect - "take the 2nd exit" nope, it's the third. "Destination on left" nope, it's on the right (supermarket).
In my case I don't actually mind as I prefer driving a car rather than having the car drive me. Cruise control is pretty good and that's all I'll be using.
Navigation is also a bit suspect - "take the 2nd exit" nope, it's the third. "Destination on left" nope, it's on the right (supermarket).
In my case I don't actually mind as I prefer driving a car rather than having the car drive me. Cruise control is pretty good and that's all I'll be using.
MrBadger
Badger out
Page 108 MODEL 3 (tesla.com) - their bold. For those of us that got the update, it was also in the release notes and quite possibly, in the info box when the feature is enabled. Manual is not always updated in sync with updates.
Traffic light and stop sign control is part of TACC on the FSD package but there is an option to turn off stop sign control.
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Musk also said phantom braking had been solved in October. I don't believe a word of it.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1314287894962622466
Oh come on! Richest guy in The World! He must know what he's talking about! Or at least be able to do something about it!
Elon!
He can’t even fix the dodgy windscreen wipers, never mind something as complex as autonomy.
Thanks - I didn't know that.... now I do!
In my defence I've only had the Tesla for a few days and also never read any instructions.
I see almost all of Phantom Braking complaints are in Right Hand drive countries! Overtaking on the right may confuse the system as the bulk of the car is to the left of the driver!!! Wouldn't be the only American to be confused.
It is real which I will capture on camera. Travel restrictions prevent more research.
None of the suggested causes were seen during the braking.
It is real which I will capture on camera. Travel restrictions prevent more research.
None of the suggested causes were seen during the braking.
Wol747
Active Member
I hadn't thought of that! Makes sense, unless you are of the opinion that a software designer might just write code for the environment that the program will be in.
<g> - but only just.....
<g> - but only just.....
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