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Setec CCS to Tesla Adapter

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The language in the (proposed?) bill says open to “at least one” manufacturer.
No it doesn't. It says:

That funds made available under this paragraph in this Act shall be for projects directly related to the charging of a vehicle and only for electric vehicle charging infrastructure that is open to the general public or to authorized commercial motor vehicle operators from more than one company

So Tesla would have to open the chargers to at least one more company. Which I have heard is coming; One option is Aptera, which is a ways off, though I have heard rumors of a different one that will be announced by the end of the month. (I'm not sure I believe it though.)
 
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No it doesn't. It says:



So Tesla would have to open the chargers to at least one more company. Which I have heard is coming; One option is Aptera, which is a ways off, though I have heard rumors of a different one that will be announced by the end of the month. (I'm not sure I believe it though.)
Thanks for the link. I was going to dig it up myself. I remember it was more than one company, there is no way "one company" would pass as Tesla doesn't have the lobbying power to get something like that in.
 
It's better than nothing, but it's much less better (especially for actual Tesla owners!) than simply having two-plug stations with both Tesla and CCS or Tesla and Chademo plugs, which would also allow real charge cables for both types, but would leave the stations open for Tesla users when heretics like myself weren't using them.
I actually like it better that they keep the individual charging outlet separate. As a Tesla owner, I would prefer to use a Tesla-only proprietary charger whenever possible, rather than a Frankencharger. Tesla charging 'just works'* and I don't want it made less reliable or more complex by adding CCS on the same charger. And I don't think that Tesla will reduce the number of Tesla outlets at its hybrid charging sites just because it also allows some CCS outlets at the same location. And, on the flip side, I'd like to see proprietary Tesla chargers at non-Tesla sites.

*And to return to the main issue of this thread (sorry), I especially think that Level 3 charging with an adapter - whether the adapter is from Setec or anyone else, including Tesla - will never 'just work'. It may work sometimes, though probably slower, and too frequently it will not work at all. I think that even Tesla will have challenges with fast and reliable interoperability of its own adapter with the mess that is the CCS charging network. I will probably buy a CCS adapter eventually (probably Tesla's), just for emergencies, but will stick with Tesla Supercharging whenever possible.
 
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I think Tesla will stick with their proprietary connector in the US. They will make an adapter and an app for drivers of CCS vehicles to plug in. The adapter and app are how Tesla will bill for the service, removing the non-Tesla car and it’s manufacturer from the charging equation and allowing the vehicle owner to deal with Tesla directly. I could be wrong about how this plays out… Tesla could end up doing extensive overhauls to the network, but that wouldn’t strike me as following a first principles approach that Elon is known for.
IMHO, the use of adapters for DC fast charging is not a workable long-term solution ("long-term" meaning over a period of decades). Adapters are cumbersome and they add a point of failure to a process that's already too prone to failure, especially at non-Tesla DC fast chargers. They're useful stop-gap tools, but in the long term, they're about as desirable as the ridiculous computer-screen enlarging lenses shown in Terry Gilliam's "Brazil":
populist_brazil.jpg

IMHO, in a few years we're likely to see one of two things happen in North America:
  • The majority of new DC fast charger installations, both Tesla and other providers, will have both Tesla and CCS1 plugs available, probably on the same charging units.
  • Tesla will transition from its proprietary connector to CCS1.
Precedent for both of these approaches exists in Europe, in its own way; Tesla switched to CCS2 starting with the Model 3 and added CCS2 plugs to existing Superchargers in Europe to support this switch. In North America, we could first see lots of dual-standard DC fast chargers followed by Tesla transitioning to CCS1; or the dual-standard chargers could work long-term, much as gas pumps today often have two or more nozzles to support different fuel types (gas and diesel, for instance).

The exact wording of legislation, as well as how regulators and granting agencies interpret that wording, may force Tesla's hand on this (but probably not third-party charging providers), especially if Tesla wants to collect government incentives. This legislation has yet to pass, and the wording is still subject to change before it passes, so what the draft legislation says now is likely to change. At the moment, I know of nothing in the works that would force Tesla to add CCS1 plugs, but there might well be financial incentives for them to do so, if not adding CCS1 plugs meant they'd be giving up lots of government money.

Getting EVgo, Electrify America, etc., to add Tesla plugs will likely require Tesla's cooperation. (They might try reverse-engineering Tesla's protocols, as Setec has done with its adapter, but this strikes me as too risky a proposition when deploying DC fast charging stations that cost many thousands of dollars each.) The fact that EVgo is already adding Tesla support (albeit in a klunky way involving Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter) suggests that there is interest on the charging providers' part. If Tesla opens up its Superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles, then that may provide more incentive for the other providers to add Tesla plugs, since otherwise the drain will be basically one-way, from non-Tesla to Tesla charging stations. If EVgo, EA, etc., can add Tesla plugs, then there can be some balance. Tesla would benefit because it'll mean more charging locations for their cars. Also, sooner or later somebody's likely to target Tesla's Supercharger network for something like the Colonial Pipeline attack. If that happens and Teslas can't charge elsewhere, it will be a PR nightmare big enough to impact sales of Tesla's cars.

All that said, Tesla could be obstinate and refuse to implement either of these options, but I doubt it -- at least, not beyond the next few years. Tesla's announced plan of using adapters to enable non-Tesla vehicles to charge at Superchargers just seems like a half-baked solution to me. Tesla might go forward with it, if their hand isn't forced by legislation, but I don't see it working in the long term. It just adds complexity and failure points to the user experience, which means that customers are likely to shun it when they have reasonable alternatives, and complain about it when they don't. Despite Tesla's significant lead in EVs so far, I don't think they'll be able to dominate the EV market for much longer (and therefore dictate terms upon the public or their competitors). Their best move, IMHO, is to try to harmonize DC fast charging standards in one way or another sooner rather than later.
 
What’s the best way to maximize the govt’s money and spend the least amount possible?

Developing a Tesla - CCS1 adapter? No, that would mean development costs and production, support, and a potential nightmare of charging issues from other makes trying to get their cars to charge at a supercharger.

Installing CCS1 plugs in addition to tesla plugs on current and future supercharger cabinets? No, that would mean development costs, see above.

How about adopting CCS1 and abandoning Tesla plug on all cars and superchargers going forward? No, that would be problems for the 1,000,000+ current Teslas and current supercharger stations. Again, development costs. Retrofits on current cars. More work for the Tesla service centers.

How about….partner up with some other 3rd party to build their CCS1 chargers on existing and future supercharger sites? Take all the cash and let someone else spend the money. No development costs needed. This is probably what Tesla will do. Brilliant.
 
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IMHO, the use of adapters for DC fast charging is not a workable long-term solution ("long-term" meaning over a period of decades). Adapters are cumbersome and they add a point of failure to a process that's already too prone to failure, especially at non-Tesla DC fast chargers. They're useful stop-gap tools, but in the long term, they're about as desirable as the ridiculous computer-screen enlarging lenses shown in Terry Gilliam's "Brazil":
populist_brazil.jpg

IMHO, in a few years we're likely to see one of two things happen in North America:
  • The majority of new DC fast charger installations, both Tesla and other providers, will have both Tesla and CCS1 plugs available, probably on the same charging units.
  • Tesla will transition from its proprietary connector to CCS1.
Precedent for both of these approaches exists in Europe, in its own way; Tesla switched to CCS2 starting with the Model 3 and added CCS2 plugs to existing Superchargers in Europe to support this switch. In North America, we could first see lots of dual-standard DC fast chargers followed by Tesla transitioning to CCS1; or the dual-standard chargers could work long-term, much as gas pumps today often have two or more nozzles to support different fuel types (gas and diesel, for instance).

The exact wording of legislation, as well as how regulators and granting agencies interpret that wording, may force Tesla's hand on this (but probably not third-party charging providers), especially if Tesla wants to collect government incentives. This legislation has yet to pass, and the wording is still subject to change before it passes, so what the draft legislation says now is likely to change. At the moment, I know of nothing in the works that would force Tesla to add CCS1 plugs, but there might well be financial incentives for them to do so, if not adding CCS1 plugs meant they'd be giving up lots of government money.

Getting EVgo, Electrify America, etc., to add Tesla plugs will likely require Tesla's cooperation. (They might try reverse-engineering Tesla's protocols, as Setec has done with its adapter, but this strikes me as too risky a proposition when deploying DC fast charging stations that cost many thousands of dollars each.) The fact that EVgo is already adding Tesla support (albeit in a klunky way involving Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter) suggests that there is interest on the charging providers' part. If Tesla opens up its Superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles, then that may provide more incentive for the other providers to add Tesla plugs, since otherwise the drain will be basically one-way, from non-Tesla to Tesla charging stations. If EVgo, EA, etc., can add Tesla plugs, then there can be some balance. Tesla would benefit because it'll mean more charging locations for their cars. Also, sooner or later somebody's likely to target Tesla's Supercharger network for something like the Colonial Pipeline attack. If that happens and Teslas can't charge elsewhere, it will be a PR nightmare big enough to impact sales of Tesla's cars.

All that said, Tesla could be obstinate and refuse to implement either of these options, but I doubt it -- at least, not beyond the next few years. Tesla's announced plan of using adapters to enable non-Tesla vehicles to charge at Superchargers just seems like a half-baked solution to me. Tesla might go forward with it, if their hand isn't forced by legislation, but I don't see it working in the long term. It just adds complexity and failure points to the user experience, which means that customers are likely to shun it when they have reasonable alternatives, and complain about it when they don't. Despite Tesla's significant lead in EVs so far, I don't think they'll be able to dominate the EV market for much longer (and therefore dictate terms upon the public or their competitors). Their best move, IMHO, is to try to harmonize DC fast charging standards in one way or another sooner rather than later.
Agreed except that Tesla will give up their connector. They have the largest installed base. If anything the argument could be made that the other manufacturers should license the Tesla connector.
 
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Am I right in reading that the setec stopped working with the .24 firmware release for the Tesla? In other words, when I pick up car up next week, if for some reason it has an older firmware, it might still work? I bought the setec when I ordered my car because there are no superchargers in SE Oklahoma where my family lives. And it was only $460 when I got it. :)
 
I will only post one final time in this forum because 75% of the content is off topic and noise at this point. I will post once I have a solution as you don't need to hear about all the failures, but work continues every day on this. I will post more updates on my youtube video dedicated to this topic as I have a bit more control over the noise posted there:
 
Am I right in reading that the setec stopped working with the .24 firmware release for the Tesla?
Correct.
In other words, when I pick up car up next week, if for some reason it has an older firmware, it might still work? I bought the setec when I ordered my car because there are no superchargers in SE Oklahoma where my family lives. And it was only $460 when I got it. :)
There's no way of knowing right now what firmware your car will have. Newly-delivered cars often have older firmware, so yours might work; however, it's also possible that Tesla switched to a newer firmware at the factory the day your car was built; or it might have been updated by delivery staff. There's really no way for us to know on this forum. If the Setec adapter working well is important to you, then I suggest you test it once you get the car. If you've got an older firmware (on the car) that works, then you can simply decline car firmware updates until you hear that there's an updated Setec firmware that works around the problem. If your firmware at delivery doesn't work, then you're in the same boat as the rest of us; you'll have to wait until somebody (almost certainly Setec, but possibly Tesla, if the breakage was accidental) fixes the problem.
 
Correct.

There's no way of knowing right now what firmware your car will have. Newly-delivered cars often have older firmware, so yours might work; however, it's also possible that Tesla switched to a newer firmware at the factory the day your car was built; or it might have been updated by delivery staff. There's really no way for us to know on this forum. If the Setec adapter working well is important to you, then I suggest you test it once you get the car. If you've got an older firmware (on the car) that works, then you can simply decline car firmware updates until you hear that there's an updated Setec firmware that works around the problem. If your firmware at delivery doesn't work, then you're in the same boat as the rest of us; you'll have to wait until somebody (almost certainly Setec, but possibly Tesla, if the breakage was accidental) fixes the problem.
ok here's what I've found This is with a 2015 S90D (your mileage may vary)

Unfortunately I did not see the threads on these shenanigans until after I let the car update to 2021.24.5. (I will not be updating for a while now!).

There is no CCS near me, but stopped at a EA 150W charger (BTC 150). Was giving me isolation fault errors with v150. I downgraded my adapter to v145 (known to work). I was able to charge. HOWEVER... as noted by others on this forum, I am no only charging at 48 kw (previously I would charge up to 70+ kw / 200a. So, yes, Tesla has dumbed down so the S is now like the M3 was, limited to Chademo speeds. But, it does work if you're at 2021.24.5.

Until I see more info from Setec, or Tesla decides to release the vaporware CCS adapter, will hold tight on this firmware, and be pissed off that I no longer get the 200A I paid for and was getting.

Good luck in OK