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FSD Beta 10.12
- Thread starter EVNow
- Start date
I had a similar experience but with a dead raccoon. FSD Beta (current version) just continued to drive straight at it, front right wheel straight at the layed out dead body splayed left to right perpendicular to direction of travel.. i disengaged at the last minute just to try and avoid it. One would think that a three dimensional object sitting ~ 4-6 inches high off the surface of the road, with a left to right width of about 24”, that the car would recognize enough to try and lean and steer left away from the object. Trying to lean RIGHT and let the object pass beneath the car would IMHO be too hard for the FSD cameras and computers to figure out, but moving just 6-8 inches left over the course of 20-40 feet of forward travel in advance should be realistic to accomplish.
One of my long-ago coworkers bristled if we called her Golf a Rabbit. Apparently the Golf was much more high end.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
A friend had a diesel rabbit back in the 90’s (it was one of the old original ones from the 70s). She called it ’the bunny’ but it took so long to accelerate that tortoise would have been a more apt name! Of course it kept going for close to 200k miles so she couldn’t compain!
It wasn’t; they were the same car. The “Rabbit” name was used in America for some years as a marketing ploy.
Just some pondering here.
I emailed the beta folks today about how FSD handles curvy roads. It goes at the speed limit, enters sharper turns too fast, abruptly slows and turns hard to recenter in the lane, which leaves it at an angle to the lane so it crossed over the centerline as the turn straightens. It is OK if I slow it down, but that is not exactly "self driving"... That is simply me having learned the dynamics of driving better than FSD has.
So, I have a query for the AI knowledgable folks here in TMC. As I was writing this up for Tesla, it occurred to me that these rough driving styles would result in a poor Safety Score, due to hard breaking and sharp turns. Crossing centerlines, while not a SS no-no, is also detectable by the cars. Perhaps deviations from the sort of smooth driving which SS demands could be used as negative reinforcement in the training process? Or is that not how it works.
It also seems that FSD does a poor job of looking ahead. It does not judge curvy turn radius far enough out to slow down before it gets there. It does not figure out which lane to be in for turns until it gets too close. It waits for merging cars (this is an AP issue) to get too close rather than slowing or speeding up to create space and prevent rather than react to the imminent conflict. In general it feels like the car is a fraction of a second behind reality, while good, safe, and smooth driving requires being a couple seconds ahead. Objects are on trajectories, and jerk and acceleration limits make those somewhat predictable. It seems that AP and FSD wait for problems to develop rather than avoiding them.
Like I said, just musing here.
SW
I emailed the beta folks today about how FSD handles curvy roads. It goes at the speed limit, enters sharper turns too fast, abruptly slows and turns hard to recenter in the lane, which leaves it at an angle to the lane so it crossed over the centerline as the turn straightens. It is OK if I slow it down, but that is not exactly "self driving"... That is simply me having learned the dynamics of driving better than FSD has.
So, I have a query for the AI knowledgable folks here in TMC. As I was writing this up for Tesla, it occurred to me that these rough driving styles would result in a poor Safety Score, due to hard breaking and sharp turns. Crossing centerlines, while not a SS no-no, is also detectable by the cars. Perhaps deviations from the sort of smooth driving which SS demands could be used as negative reinforcement in the training process? Or is that not how it works.
It also seems that FSD does a poor job of looking ahead. It does not judge curvy turn radius far enough out to slow down before it gets there. It does not figure out which lane to be in for turns until it gets too close. It waits for merging cars (this is an AP issue) to get too close rather than slowing or speeding up to create space and prevent rather than react to the imminent conflict. In general it feels like the car is a fraction of a second behind reality, while good, safe, and smooth driving requires being a couple seconds ahead. Objects are on trajectories, and jerk and acceleration limits make those somewhat predictable. It seems that AP and FSD wait for problems to develop rather than avoiding them.
Like I said, just musing here.
SW
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
The best way to put it is FSD is not very refined. Sometimes it does very well, often times it's jerky and harsh. previous releases were very timid. With the current release they've made it too aggressive, IMO. It's not perfect but I think Tesla has been spending the majority of it's efforts on things like turns, lane selection, etc. I expect the driving style will improve as time goes on.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I had a strange FSD fail today. I was heading to work, turning from a residential street to a 2 lane county road. There were 2 cars ahead of me waiting to turn at the stop sign. As I came up behind them, FSD suddenly decides to pass them on the left. This was a residential street with no lane markings and only a bit over 2 cars wide. To top it off, there was another car turning onto the street that I would have hit head-on had I not intervened. I hit the brake, stopping the car and deactivating FSD.
After I was behind the rear-most car waiting to turn, I re-engaged FSD but when it came to the intersection, it turned Left instead of right, despite the fact that the route had it turning right. I'm trying to figure out how in the world it decided to turn left.
After I was behind the rear-most car waiting to turn, I re-engaged FSD but when it came to the intersection, it turned Left instead of right, despite the fact that the route had it turning right. I'm trying to figure out how in the world it decided to turn left.
That's a headscratcher. I had one a little similar recently where I was exiting a freeway to a city street and needed to turn left. The map data showed the car turning left at the freeway exit light, but the navigation said to drive straight on the street (which I would need to turn left to get on), so FSD Beta (which had taken over on the exit) wanted to go straight instead of turn left. I needed to disengage and make the left turn myself, then re-engage.
I drove 5 miles home up a windy road with a crosshatched centerline, down another back road and up a short unmarked road with no interventions! (unless you count speed manipulation near the end to give it time to correct and not run into a mailbox) This was the furthest distance I have ever gone without taking over. I could not have done it without the timid tourist who led the way (and absence of a tailgater). Not super smooth but smooth enough. Decent lane keeping except for the perennial wandering on the unmarked road.
Though it still makes poor planning decisions (not getting in correct lane for turns early enough on other routes), this still feels kinda like a milestone for me. Such an improvement to finally not be riding the crosshatched center line up the mountain, at least for a day!
Though it still makes poor planning decisions (not getting in correct lane for turns early enough on other routes), this still feels kinda like a milestone for me. Such an improvement to finally not be riding the crosshatched center line up the mountain, at least for a day!
I'm hopeful that the next firmware will improve lane selection as they tweak the new planning neural net.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Dang it. After reading posts about folks still doing well with 10.12.2 - I took it out for a drive today.
Damned if if hadn’t got 3 miles and a usually previously good road than I get the red hands take over immediately.
I disengaged FSDb and gave up for the rest of the evening.
I’m can wait for 10.12.2
Damned if if hadn’t got 3 miles and a usually previously good road than I get the red hands take over immediately.
I disengaged FSDb and gave up for the rest of the evening.
I’m can wait for 10.12.2
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I drove 18 miles home the other day and the car did perfectly until it veered into a turn lane with less than a mile to go. This is a spot where it fails at least 90% of the time so I wasn’t surprised. Fixing lane selection would eliminate at least 75% of my disengagements. There are still other random ones but lane selection is easily the single biggest issue.
FSDtester#1
Craves Electrolytes
Looks like in the next week according to EM we get 10.13, then v11 in August
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
It doesn’t really sound like 10.13 or 11.X are anything to look forward to anyway. Just incremental changes, nothing earth-shattering.
Wonder when they will call it feature complete and just claim FSD is delivered? Seems like it is getting pretty close. I wonder what their internal idea of “good enough” is?
totally hope for this around here. I have several intersections in just residential areas where the THROUGH lane (is it ThRU? English not MT) is on the RIGHT side at the intersection and the car just CANNOT GET OVER to the right lane and so it stays in the main, then left lane (which is a left turn only land and marked with street indicators) and then freaks out and really cannot get over to the right in front of other cars.
It’s so bad and has never been corrected and around here its a bit of a game I play because Tesla are about 50-60% of the cars in the area and I’m sure MANY of them have FSD Beta. I’ll OFTEN come to one of these intersections where I purposely move the car over to the right lane since that’s the THRU lane for my travel and there is a TESLA still in the LEFT lane next to me and I make a little personal bet that AFTER I proceed through the intersection from the correct lane, the Tesla to MY LEFT is going to CRAZY IVAN and pull over into my lane behind me, in front of another car in the right lane since what they really wanted was to go thru the intersection straight, but they were on FSD Beta and it still cant handle this scenario.
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