Tesla’s map data just plain sucks. I think we can confidently say that 70% of our disengagements are now purely because of awful lane selection and navigation error from either the map data or vision system.
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FSD Beta 10.69
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
I don't know about that video, but at least in his last tweet he claimed no accelerator, no changing speed limits, no disengagements. Unless he's just making stuff up, the best conclusion to draw is that FSD Beta can behave very differently in different areas:
Yes and it seems easier to fix than a complex unprotected left. Getting in the rightmost lane of a 4 lane road for an upcoming left turn seems easy to fix. I would argue that lane selection issues are software bugs - vision system is visually correct on these roads and there is nothing about map data that makes you choose the extreme opposite lane for an upcoming turn. I mean the visualization shows the left turn lanes correctly as it drives past the left turn lanes with the blinker on and stays on main road. And it got worse in 10.69.
in the video you posted, it was just a super-easy route. Mostly lane following, few intesections, very simple intersections, well-marked lane lines, low traffic. I'm pretty sure my car would do fine on that route too.
boonedocks
MS LR Blk/Blk 19”
So with my constant wrong lane selection I have also noticed another anomaly happening fairly often. I have NAV set to use the HOV lane and NOT exit passing lane to keep it there for my 35 miles of expressway driving. From time to time the Blue "Upcoming Lane Change" pops up and even turns on the left blinker which would take me into the median wall LOL.
I zoomed in this morning where my car always makes an incorrect lane selection and my car was off by at least three lanes.
I wonder how many of our problems we are having are completely Map GPS related and how many of our FSD Beta issues can NOT be fixed until the maps and GPS coordination is resolved.
boonedocks
MS LR Blk/Blk 19”
Fairly often on my 2021 Refresh S LR and it is in my garage at night and on the open road / parking lot all day long. That was after an almost 1 hour drive on the expressway today!
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
There was not a real-time video posted of the other video (that I could find). So hard to see what is happening exactly; he seemed to make a few reports.
The one you posted is easy as was pointed out, and you can see it jam on the brakes starting around 17:10 as it turns.
It also really struggles getting in and out of residential neighborhoods.
It all seems consistent. Yes, it definitely behaves differently in different areas (meaning: different types of roads in the same area).
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Ok. I captured the graph using the "grabit" utility for Matlab. I understand that you're a software engineer? Perhaps you can do the other half of this project and tabulate the number of FSD users from TeslaFi's sample (unfortunately they don't provide a simple table, all the data is there though, they maker which versions of FSD beta).
March 2021 "Currently there are 824 vehicles in the pilot program -753 employees and 71 nonemployees."
We know there was a big ramp to 60k users by January 2022.
We know there were basically no new users added until it was expanded to 100k users (note that the graph is completely flat during that time!)
FSD has definitely gotten better. I just think if you look at the data you will find that the increase in miles per month is entirely due to Tesla releasing it to more people.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Now THIS is due diligence in preparation for a decision on whether to purchase HW3.
If only all people making such large purchases would do the same!
Anybody else notice more data uploaded with 10.69 compared to 10.12? We've been rate limited to ~4.5Mbps by our ISP due to FSD Beta uploading 20GB+/day but at least it makes it easy to calculate total upload as every hour is at most 2GB. This screenshot shows this vehicle uploading continuously for the last 11 hours, but showing more on the left would reveal the full 13 hours of activity. The slight drop towards the left side is when the other vehicle returned home and did a little bit of upload using up some of the bandwidth limit before it went to sleep and the drop at the right end is when it finished uploading everything.
13 hours * 2GB/hour - 2x 0.5GB drop = 25GB. Previously the limit seemed to be around 20GB and even earlier versions around 15GB.
13 hours * 2GB/hour - 2x 0.5GB drop = 25GB. Previously the limit seemed to be around 20GB and even earlier versions around 15GB.
I agree with this.
For example, Elon has said before that he could go from his home to his job with zero interventions. So, one can conclude that on his route, he has no 3-4 lane intersections where FSD gets confused by combinations of red/green signals in adjacent lanes, nor (for example) does he have trees in the median strip casting shadows onto the roadway causing repeated phantom braking. Nor does he encounter stopped school buses with the red stop signs sticking out from the side. And no notable lane change needs along the way.
For starters.
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mtbwalt
Member
So at the same intersection today there was little traffic so instead of taking control I just let the car do what it wanted at this intersection.
It approached the right turn from the left lane then essentially stopped In the intersection hesitantly creeping diagonally underneath the green light. A car passed me in the right lane and eventually my car just proceeded straight through the intersection, failing to take the planned and plotted right turn. That’s what you get when you approach a right turn from the left lane! It ended up doglegging over at a subsequent street to get back on its path. Of course I saved the video for the Tesla FSD crew.
I hope my car felt sheepish.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
For my fellow queue-mates, 10.69.2.1 goes to those with scores 80+ ina few days. 10.69.3 after AI Day (Sept 30):
mtndrew1
Active Member
One of my litmus tests is a 3.8 mile stretch of Figueroa in Los Angeles, roughly between 39th and 2nd streets, which the car has never been able to complete.
FSD needs to choose one lane and stay in it for the entire distance. All intersections are light controlled and there are no turns or merges.
Prior to 10.69.2 this route would result in something like five complete disengagements and probably a dozen interventions. The car would come to a complete stop in the middle of three of the intersections with a green light.
Today FSD did the whole route with a single disengagement, very few interventions, and “only” stopped in the middle of one of the intersections.
Still completely useless on a pretty straightforward stretch of road traversed by thousands of Teslas every day but a big improvement nonetheless.
FSD needs to choose one lane and stay in it for the entire distance. All intersections are light controlled and there are no turns or merges.
Prior to 10.69.2 this route would result in something like five complete disengagements and probably a dozen interventions. The car would come to a complete stop in the middle of three of the intersections with a green light.
Today FSD did the whole route with a single disengagement, very few interventions, and “only” stopped in the middle of one of the intersections.
Still completely useless on a pretty straightforward stretch of road traversed by thousands of Teslas every day but a big improvement nonetheless.
I legitimately want to know what's wrong with some people's cars that they experience these things. I personally don't have most of these problems, and there are many medians around me with trees and shrubs, lots of intersections with multiple lanes (many of the main roads in my area are 6-8 lanes (3-4 per side). I used to have PB problems several versions ago, but they've gone WAY down and are a minor issue now (occasional 1-5MPH drops). I do indeed have planning problems, like many people, where the car will occasionally pick the wrong lane. I have yet to encounter a school bus stoppage, but I also acknowledge that the system is not yet trained for this, nor is it trained for school zone speed drops. In these situations, I would manually lower the speed, or simply intervene and stop when approaching a school bus.
At one point I thought my cabin camera may be not functioning as people complain about getting dinged for not paying attention when they are. I finally decided to test that the other day and looked away for several seconds. I did not get a notice. I then tried picking up my cell phone and looking down at it, and then the notice came - Pay Attention. So that's all working fine for me too.
Is it that I have a freak car? Is it that I keep my car clean often? Is it that I calibrate the cameras after every major version update? Is it that I reboot my car using the brake method every time I get it washed? I'm perplexed. And I'm saddened when I read people experiencing these issues.
powertoold
Active Member
Cheburashka
Active Member
Yes this is my experience as well. FSD has improved in the sense that it seems to do individual things a bit better, but the experience as a whole is more or less the same. I just drive myself if I want to get somewhere and turn FSDb on if I'm in the mood for testing and not in a rush.
My impression is that Telsas with Trouble on 69.2 are those that are driven in places where the AI can't figure it out. If one lives in a flat landscape with set-backs on the roads and everything is at right angles, I would expect Really Good Performance from the FSD-b.
In my area, where it's all heavy traffic, Obscured View Central, Unmarked/Unstriped roads, mergers of three lanes to two or (worse) one lane to three, FSD-b has Trouble. Mind you, the 69.2 variant has less trouble, by far, than the previous release, but trouble none the less.
jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
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I think that you touched on the main reasons. One hint that the front cams are having trouble is if the auto wipers operate when there is no rain. Tree sap, bugs and water spotting can partially occlude the front cams. Sometimes it's not enough to disable FSD beta, but it could be enough to randomly impact the vision system. I periodically clean the glass and for good measure I also use a long handled aquarium razor blade to scrape off any sap and dried bugs around where the front cams are.
Beyond what you mentioned, another factor is the discrepancy between map data and what the vision system recognizes. The quality of the map data must be variable throughout NA. And further, major thoroughfares are more likely to be accurately mapped than rural roads and side streets.
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