I am with @Singuy on this. If it takes me to the places I typically drive, then my car is driving me autonomously. I simply don't care whether it can drive in Brooklyn or Timbactoo or do a cross country trip or can take a round about.
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FSD discussion
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Luckily anecdotal experiences don't determine definitions.
Is there really anything else available that handles city streets / stoplights / point to point close to Tesla? I've just enabled "FSD" and although I don't use it consistently, it has really impressed me when I do use in on surface streets.
On the freeway it is pretty spectacular. I've looked into the other systems but can't find one that does the on ramp to off ramp anywhere near as well - especially with the auto lane changes.
On the freeway it is pretty spectacular. I've looked into the other systems but can't find one that does the on ramp to off ramp anywhere near as well - especially with the auto lane changes.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Their take is rather amateurish.
According to crowd sourced data, over 50% of trips < 20 miles long have zero disengagements. Still the disengagement rate is 1 in 10 miles. We need it to be about 1 in 1,000 to 10,000 (or 100x to 1000x) better to be a robotaxi. Waymo has a 9k+ disengagement rate.
jeewee3000
Active Member
I can't wait to try FSDbeta in Europe. Unfortunately the timeline for EU-FSDbeta is pushed out again and again.
Am I correct when I say the last update from Elon regarding this was at AI Day #2 where he said "maybe by the end of 2022, if regulators allow it"?
There was a leak where Tesla UK was said to have been testing FSDbeta in the UK since beginning of 2022.
Seems to me EU is not too far off then? (But I'll keep my expectations in check. I don't expect it in 2023 TBH.)
Anyone has any update on this?
According to Mercedes:
Level 3 autonomy only operates on “suitable freeway sections and where there is high traffic density”. IOW, less useful than Tesla Level 2 autopilot, which requires hands on the wheel but operates anywhere it can detect lane lines and up to 5 mph over the speed limit.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
The Mercedes thing (for now) is a publicity-stunt-only level 3. Limited to select pre-mapped highways in a couple states, in good weather, at low speed, with certain traffic levels, etc. If you meet all of that (and oops as shown during the press event the sun isn't shining too bright ahead of you) you can take your hands off the wheel.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
DETAILS Matter. This "Level 3" approval is simply smoke and mirrors.
1) Mercedes L3 system only works on pre-mapped roads (like Cruze and Waymo).
2) This system is limited to 37 MPH, EVEN on HIGHWAYS.
No, this system by Mercedes is pure junk, the practicality of it is pretty much zero.
Mercedes-Benz's Drive Pilot L3 Is Super Smooth (but Limited) Hands-Free Driving
Mercedes' Drive Pilot tech is already offered on the S-Class and EQS sedans for road-legal use in Germany, but won’t make its U.S. debut until 2023.
www.thedrive.com
Even in the "test drive" situation for the press, Mercedes chose to do this on a closed course. Not exactly awe-inspiring.
First of all the Mercedes system was limited to 37 mph because of a regulatory limit. If you had ever spent your days commuting in places where you might easily spend an hour creeping ahead you would know that this system most certainly isn't "useless". Additionally, the regulatory cap has now been raised to 130 km/h and we can assume that Mercedes will raise their limit very soon as well.DETAILS Matter. This "Level 3" approval is simply smoke and mirrors.
1) Mercedes L3 system only works on pre-mapped roads (like Cruze and Waymo).
2) This system is limited to 37 MPH, EVEN on HIGHWAYS.
No, this system by Mercedes is pure junk, the practicality of it is pretty much zero.
Mercedes-Benz's Drive Pilot L3 Is Super Smooth (but Limited) Hands-Free Driving
Mercedes' Drive Pilot tech is already offered on the S-Class and EQS sedans for road-legal use in Germany, but won’t make its U.S. debut until 2023.
Even in the "test drive" situation for the press, Mercedes chose to do this on a closed course. Not exactly awe-inspiring.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Did you read the article? The system only works on something like 9000 km of road.
Tesla's system isn't perfect, I have my gripes with FSDb, but at least it functions on hundreds of thousands of miles of roadway.
It only works in L3 mode on 9000 km of roadway. Given that Germany has about 13000 km of motorways, that's most of that already. The Tesla system works in L3 mode on exactly 0 km of roadway.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
That's actually pretty disingenuous, and you know it, or you actually are just glossing over the important details. The "technicality" of L3 is being embraced, but ONLY a subset of the L3 feature set. The limitations on it in this vehicle are so extreme that a pretty good case could be made that this is far worse "false advertising" than Musk's comments on FSD.
Go watch the actual videos of the media driving in this thing. There is absolutely nothing earth-shattering about it. It's like Ford's Bluecruse at best.
People complain about FSDb and some of the errors it has routinely, and they are legit gripes, but what MB has shown is just not impressive by comparison. At least FSDb is trying to do stuff like unprotected left turns, stopping and starting at stop lights, lane changes, etc. The MB solution doesn't even ATTEMPT any of this. The SAE standards definitions are the problem, and this video reviews the MB solution, in comparison to Tesla's, and gives them both crap for what they fail on:
Both are less than perfect solutions, but the MB solution is so limited as to not be useful under most circumstances, except basically traffic jams. Needs a mapped road, etc. etc. etc.
TL;DR - the MB solution is at best equivalent to what Tesla's solution was actually doing back in 2016 with Autopilot 1.0 Hardware, but with far fewer roads, and no ability to try to drive on a road that hasn't been mapped.
MB - you can take your eyes off the road and say watch a video, but it can only effectively be used on highways UNDER 40MPH (no rain, no fog either).
TESLA - you can't take your eyes off the road, technically, but the car will try MUCH MORE difficult maneuvers (on/off ramps, stop lights and signs, left and right turns, lane changes, drives in fog, rain).
Pure junk? I’d call phantom breaking that almost killed me a few times pure junk. This allows hands off eyes off on highways limited to a certain speed for now. This is already better than autopilot. BMW has hands off under 40 as well. GM and Ford have hands off Better than Autopilot. Sorry but Tesla is falling behind. The demos of FSD I’ve seen seem to be pure junk. There’s little to no progress on vision only.DETAILS Matter. This "Level 3" approval is simply smoke and mirrors.
1) Mercedes L3 system only works on pre-mapped roads (like Cruze and Waymo).
2) This system is limited to 37 MPH, EVEN on HIGHWAYS.
No, this system by Mercedes is pure junk, the practicality of it is pretty much zero.
Mercedes-Benz's Drive Pilot L3 Is Super Smooth (but Limited) Hands-Free Driving
Mercedes' Drive Pilot tech is already offered on the S-Class and EQS sedans for road-legal use in Germany, but won’t make its U.S. debut until 2023.
Even in the "test drive" situation for the press, Mercedes chose to do this on a closed course. Not exactly awe-inspiring.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Phantom breaking is NOT unique to Tesla, you try to make it sound like it is. It's so prevalent, in fact, that NHTSA has ongoing investigations into all automakers ADAS systems and phantom breaking.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
I have FSDb. It requires supervision, but the improvements over Autopilot and EAP are staggering.
Do I trust it unattended? Nope, not one bit. But the improvements in just 6 months are incredibly impressive.
Ok, then I can say. My Teslas (both of them) were the only cars where I ever experienced phantom breaking. My BMW i4, never. My Mercedes several years ago? Never. My Teslas - many many many times. Sometimes random sometimes in the same spots, but always for no apparent reason. I do not buy the whole Vision thing - I really think it was mostly based on parts shortages as they are now supposedly bringing back some kind of radar. I didn't even know phantom breaking was some sort of phenomenon until I got a Tesla.
TSLY
Member
FSD is striving to attain L3 autonomous driving, a level it is struggling to achieve but possibly may down the road. My understanding is no vehicle will attain L4 or L5 autonomous capabilities until updated traffic infrastructure allows Geofencing to enable vehicles to communicate with each other and the roads. My 2019 BMW could do everything my Tesla MY with AP does now.
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I have not experienced phantom braking in well over a year in my Model 3 with EAP. Comparing Mercedes to Tesla AP:
Mercedes allows hands-off eyes-off, but only under 40 mph on certain approved sections of freeways.
Tesla requires hands-on eyes-on but operates up to 5 mph over the speed limit on any road where it can detect the lane markings, and at any speed the car is capable of on all divided highways & freeways.
If Hawai'i allowed the same style of operation on Maui as Nevada allows, there would be no roads on Maui where I could use Mercedes level 3. Within Kihei I often have to disengage AP to avoid holding back traffic because most people drive more then 10 mph over the speed limit. But whenever I drive to other cities (most often Kahalui and Wailuku) I am able to use AP. And I can use it on Pi'ilani Highway within Kihei when traffic is light.
For me, Tesla wins because I can use it and I would not be able to use Mercedes.
From what I've read of FSD and FSDb, I would not trust either of them.
I've had phantom braking once in over 30,000 miles of FSD driving, and that was not too long after I first got FSD (2020). Phantom braking, I believe, depends a lot on the route you drive as well as the car you drive, so some people will experience it more often than others.
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