FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[EVNow]

Cool, where does it say unlimited and Tesla is liable?

Elon was asked this in the '19 AP day and said "I guess we are responsible" or something similar.

 

[Knightshade]

Cool, where does it say unlimited

What does that even mean?

No limit is listed, or even suggested, in a single word of the feature they sold. It's your car, you can use it as much as you want...to the point the description even includes using superchargers on long trips mentioning "for superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle"

and Tesla is liable?

Again unclear what you mean here.

But they're describing an L4 (or arguably L5) system. By definition anything L3 or higher the human is not driving the car - the system is.

So who else but Tesla COULD be liable?

Further, states that have laws allowing L3 or higher specifically call out the maker of the driving system needing to have liability insurance for their system.

 

[powertoold]

So who else but Tesla COULD be liable?

So based on your reading of the description, this is speculation.

Who else could be liable? The person in the driver's seat (if he doesn't take over when needed). That's my speculation based on the description.

 

[Knightshade]

So based on your reading of the description, this is speculation.

No, it's a literal reading of the actual words.

Like, it doesn't say "only for blue cars" either.... but speculating it'll somehow not apply to black cars is nonsensical.

Likewise it doesn't say 'Only 10k miles a year' or anything like it, so your WHERE DO THEY SAY UNLIMITED??? question is nonsensical.

Who else could be liable? The person in the driver's seat (if he doesn't take over when needed).

Except it's L4.

They're never needed. It's in the description.

NOTHING will be required of them. Not monitoring, not supervising, not being ready to or ever needing to, take over. Because all those would violate the literal words in the description.

That's my speculation based on the description.

Then you need to re-read the description because you're wrong.

 

[powertoold]

NOTHING will be required of them. Not monitoring, not supervising, not being ready to or ever needing to, take over. Because all those would violate the literal words in the description.

So there's no way to interpret that part as:

If you don't want to be liable, then you should pay attention.

However, you're not required to pay attention, but if there's an accident, you may need to pay for it.

I have trouble seeing how you can conclude ONLY Tesla can be liable based on that description. ONLY TESLA. NO other interpretation possible.

TESLA created that description for only ONE interpretation.

 

[Knightshade]

So there's no way to interpret that part as:

If you don't want to be liable, then you should pay attention.

No, because that would require the person in the seat to do something.

"The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat"

It doesn't even say you need to be a licensed adult. Or awake. Or decide each drive if you want to be responsible or not.

It LITERALLY says all you will need to do is get in and tell the car where to go....and then mentioned even if you DON'T tell it where it go it'll use its best guess based on your calendar or home location.

 

[powertoold]

It doesn't even say you need to be a licensed adult. Or awake. Or decide each drive if you want to be responsible or not.

That's the whole point. That description PURPOSELY leaves out the details, so that there can be MULTIPLE interpretations.

You're so silly with this honestly. You're basically saying Tesla created a description that pigeonholes them into ONE INTERPRETATION.

No company does that, especially with high risk products.

If the description is truly level 4, it would say, "no person is required to be in the car." But it doesn't say / imply that (except for the summon feature), every aspect of the description involves a human in the car. Tesla can simply use that fact to argue that the description doesn't fit level 4 definitions.

 

[Knightshade]

That's the whole point. That description PURPOSELY leaves out the details, so that there can be MULTIPLE interpretations.

I mean, it doesn't though.

The car requires nothing from the person in the seat. There's no way to read that other than L4 or L5. Meaning the driver is not driving at all

You're so silly with this honestly. You're basically saying Tesla created a description that pigeonholes them into ONE INTERPRETATION.

I mean- that's how MOST product descriptions work.

When I order a television they can't send me a hot tub if they describe the TV vaguely.

If the description is truly level 4

There's no if involved.

Have you ever read the SAE levels?

L4 is the lowest level where the person in a drivers seat never has to do anything.

Period. Full stop.

Tesla says their system will do that.

Period. Full stop.


Now, they COULD have meant L5 I suppose. But what they describe, reading the actual words they actually used can not be lower than 4.

 

[powertoold]

L4 is the lowest level where the person in a drivers seat never has to do anything.

Wrong though. L4 allows for no human in the car. Period. Full stop.

Where in the description does it imply that no human is required to be in the car, other than summoning in a parking lot?

 

[Knightshade]

Wrong though. L4 allows for no human in the car. Period. Full stop.

Again you're making no sense.

It ALLOWS for it. It doesn't REQUIRE it.

A human being there doesn't change it being L4 as long as the human is never needing to do anything.

Where in the description does it imply that no human is required to be in the car, other than summoning in a parking lot?

Where it says "no action required by the person in the driver's seat"

Every level below 4 requires action by the person in the driver's seat

Thus L4 is the LOWEST level what they write is true of.



It also seems you began the whole discussion from a false assumption... that it would be insane for Tesla to sell something SO HARD TO DO for 3-5k.

There's several problems with that assumption. Here's just a few of em:

1) Elon thought it was easy. He's on record describing self driving as a basically solved thing back to at least 2015. And similar statements many times annually for years to come. It was MUCH later, after the price went way up, he finally admitted it turned out it was actually hard to do.

2) That 3-5k came on top of needing to spend 5k on EAP...so the cheapest it ever was in those days was 8-10k total.

3) The hardware came on the car even if you bought neither- so the incremental cost to sell FSD was $0.00 at the time....but helped fund future development.

 

[powertoold]

It ALLOWS for it. It doesn't REQUIRE it.

I think you're more right than me on this part.

I still think there are multiple interpretations of the description. If it's L4, there's no ODD specified. If it's L5, it doesn't say in all weather conditions or unlimited ODD.

 

[sleepydoc]

Schedule?? When the solution to a problem is currently unknown, there can be no schedule. Just an attempt to solve it.

But that also means it’s impossible to accurately predict when it will be solved.

 

[clydeiii]

But that also means it’s impossible to accurately predict when it will be solved.

Yeah, sure. That’s never stopped anyone here from predicting the tired and cliched “ten years away” though.

 

[PACEMD]

Damn I’m behind on 4 pages

Can I get spark notes?

Don't worry, none of this will be on the test.........

 

[Ramphex]

Ah, but those features aren't there to protect Tesla from you in case you don't take full liability.

Those features are there to protect Tesla from the State of California, the US Department of Transportation and a giant pile of eager ambulance chasers.

Think about it. If you were Tesla, would you trust a lawyer who said "My trial plan is to point to @Ramphex and tell the jury 'Hey, it's on him! He said we could trust him and he don' need no stinkin' driver monitoring!' "

What’s the difference with and without the junk engaged? If I want to do something reckless then I will and there’s no way Tesla can stop me.

 

[PACEMD]

And we humans never fall for fake info on the internet. Now back to the real Flat Earth society website for enlightenment.

What's your issue with the Flat Earth Society? They have members all around the globe you know........

 

[Ramphex]

What's your issue with the Flat Earth Society? They have members all around the globe you know........

Gravity isn’t real

 

[jabloomf1230]

What's your issue with the Flat Earth Society? They have members all around the globe you know........

No one disputes that the earth is round. What's in question is whether it is a flat circle or a globe.

 

[kabin]

Here we are with another FSD version likely being declared unworthy and an end to new downloads. It doesn't say much that FSD simulation and employee testing didn't detect something as obvious as severe braking when oncoming traffic passes by.

Hopefully 11.4.2 has better results.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Here we are with another FSD version likely being declared unworthy and an end to new downloads. It doesn't say much that FSD simulation and employee testing didn't detect something as obvious as severe braking when oncoming traffic passes by.

Hopefully 11.4.2 has better results.

11.4.1 has been better in all ways than 11.3.4, especially braking events for me.

It was a minor upgrade though, nothing huge in any area.