Autopilot is getting worse, not better.

[Pagemakers]

Seems fine to me. Build a USA system first, and then build a worldwide system second ... or territory-by-territory second if individual territories are indeed significantly different.

That’s fine but don’t charge us for it!!

When I got my first Tesla S 7 years ago I was assured FSD was happening soon. 3 Years ago when I sold the car and purchased my 3 I paid for FSD again. This car is due to be replaced in April. Do I purchase FSD for a 3rd time??! I think the UK is years away from the same autonomy as the USA.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Seems fine to me. Build a USA system first, and then build a worldwide system second ... or territory-by-territory second if individual territories are indeed significantly different.

The job is hard (as it turns out ...) and trying to do all possible customer scenarios at once would be harder still, add complexity, and slow the project down.

Comes down to your beliefs on architecture and iterative development. You can easily back yourself into a corner by earlier choices as we’ve seen with things like sentry mode which uses kit that doesn’t have a low energy mode, as a result it’s chronically inefficient.

If you take a holistic look at global regulations you make your technology choices accordingly. Bluetooth may always been doomed when it comes to sentry as a global approach, I don’t know what other choices there might be, but presumably there are some. And maybe those choices would work better in the US too, instead we’ll have two different code sets to achieve the same goal.

 

[Billbrown1982]

Comes down to your beliefs on architecture and iterative development. You can easily back yourself into a corner by earlier choices as we’ve seen with things like sentry mode which uses kit that doesn’t have a low energy mode, as a result it’s chronically inefficient.

If you take a holistic look at global regulations you make your technology choices accordingly. Bluetooth may always been doomed when it comes to sentry as a global approach, I don’t know what other choices there might be, but presumably there are some. And maybe those choices would work better in the US too, instead we’ll have two different code sets to achieve the same goal.

Agreed on the most part, but we moan about sentry mode....find me another car that does it as well as Tesla though? If at all?

I LOVE having a near 360 view of my car when its parked up unattended. Sure you can fit front and rear dash cams...heck could even fit side ones with some of them but to have it all built in and be relatively discreet?

I dunno....I do sometimes feel like we focus too much on what they are doing wrong and forget about what they have done right.

 

[Pagemakers]

They do a lot right and I applaud them for that and there are plenty of topics covering that.

This topic is about the poor performance of autopilot that some of us have paid for multiple times.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Agreed on the most part, but we moan about sentry mode....find me another car that does it as well as Tesla though? If at all?

I LOVE having a near 360 view of my car when its parked up unattended. Sure you can fit front and rear dash cams...heck could even fit side ones with some of them but to have it all built in and be relatively discreet?

I dunno....I do sometimes feel like we focus too much on what they are doing wrong and forget about what they have done right.

You can access the 360 view from a BMW via the app - it takes a photo rather than a live stream, but it’s on demand, over the air. And that’s a 360 view including curbs, side view, top down, you can swing your viewpoint around at will - is it as good as Tesla? In some respects it’s better, in other it’s worse. We also have a drive record feature which is in effect a dashcam, it uses the front and rear facing built in cameras

But I think trying to do a feature play off is missing the general point: the old school auto are conservative with what they do, things are thought through long and hard, evolved from lessons learnt in the past, etc. and that means software bugs are few and far between but things don’t really evolve while you own the car (although that is changing a bit). The wipers work today like they did the day we picked up the car. And by “work” I mean they actually “work”. The adaptive headlights adapt..

Tesla adopt a different mindset. I kind of think there’s a happy medium somewhere between the two.

 

[Billbrown1982]

They do a lot right and I applaud them for that and there are plenty of topics covering that.

This topic is about the poor performance of autopilot that some of us have paid for multiple times.

Ok sure but again, I've driven so many different vehicles where even adaptive cruise control has nearly run me straight into the back of another vehicle multiple times. Want scary? Mercedes HGV's....I must have driven 100's of different ones over the years for companies like Tesco....

The amount of times they just don't see white cars is staggering. Like autocruise will literally just plow straight into the back of one without even blinking.

Toyota's, my RAV 4 used to have a similar issue with black cars infront.

Ford Bluecruise....what a cop out honestly. Anyone can go and map out a road and then tell the car how to drive on it but what happens when something changes, roadworks, temporary lane movements etc and yet its being sold as some amazing all singing all dancing beat everyone to the punch autopilot replacement? Its not even close.

Trucks again, this time DAF's will often slam on the brakes when it sees certain overhead gantrys, even if you have your foot on the accelerator because it thinks your about to have a collision.

I've never had that with my Tesla. Sure its been very abrupt at times, accelerating too quick and braking too hard but not once have I been worried it wasn't going to stop at all.

I'm in no way a Tesla fanboy I assure you, I have criticised lots of things over the last 2 years but I still think we are suffering from a grass is greener approach here. I've spent more time on autopilot, in a relaxed probabably not paying as much attention as I should driving style and its always got me where I need to be.

You can access the 360 view from a BMW via the app - it takes a photo rather than a live stream, but it’s on demand, over the air. And that’s a 360 view including curbs, side view, top down, you can swing your viewpoint around at will - is it as good as Tesla? In some respects it’s better, in other it’s worse. We also have a drive record feature which is in effect a dashcam, it uses the front and rear facing built in cameras

But I think trying to do a feature play off is missing the general point: the old school auto are conservative with what they do, things are thought through long and hard, evolved from lessons learnt in the past, etc. and that means software bugs are few and far between but things don’t really evolve while you own the car (although that is changing a bit). The wipers work today like they did the day we picked up the car. And by “work” I mean they actually “work”. The adaptive headlights adapt..

Tesla adopt a different mindset. I kind of think there’s a happy medium somewhere between the two.

BMW often get mentioned in a competition type way and I must admit they would quite likely be my second choice. I did price up a X5 or an X7 a couple years back before I got the Tesla and once I had added on what I wanted the price just got away from me in a big way though and if they carry on this approach of heated seat subscriptions, they will never see my business.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Ok sure but again, I've driven so many different vehicles where even adaptive cruise control has nearly run me straight into the back of another vehicle multiple times. Want scary? Mercedes HGV's....I must have driven 100's of different ones over the years for companies like Tesco....

The amount of times they just don't see white cars is staggering. Like autocruise will literally just plow straight into the back of one without even blinking.

Toyota's, my RAV 4 used to have a similar issue with black cars infront.

Ford Bluecruise....what a cop out honestly. Anyone can go and map out a road and then tell the car how to drive on it but what happens when something changes, roadworks, temporary lane movements etc and yet its being sold as some amazing all singing all dancing beat everyone to the punch autopilot replacement? Its not even close.

Trucks again, this time DAF's will often slam on the brakes when it sees certain overhead gantrys, even if you have your foot on the accelerator because it thinks your about to have a collision.

I've never had that with my Tesla. Sure its been very abrupt at times, accelerating too quick and braking too hard but not once have I been worried it wasn't going to stop at all.

I'm in no way a Tesla fanboy I assure you, I have criticised lots of things over the last 2 years but I still think we are suffering from a grass is greener approach here. I've spent more time on autopilot, in a relaxed probabably not paying as much attention as I should driving style and its always got me where I need to be.



BMW often get mentioned in a competition type way and I must admit they would quite likely be my second choice. I did price up a X5 or an X7 a couple years back before I got the Tesla and once I had added on what I wanted the price just got away from me in a big way though and if they carry on this approach of heated seat subscriptions, they will never see my business.

I’d rather pay £100 for a heated seat than £6800 for FSD - at least one does something

 

[boogle]

Ford Bluecruise....what a cop out honestly. Anyone can go and map out a road and then tell the car how to drive on it but what happens when something changes, roadworks, temporary lane movements etc and yet its being sold as some amazing all singing all dancing beat everyone to the punch autopilot replacement? Its not even close.

Out Of Spec did a test of Bluecruise on a Mach E and a large chunk of test road was different due to roadworks but cruise still worked. The mapping clearly isn't critical for the function of the system.

The trucks you mention sound a lot like earlier VAG implementations, which are just bad. Let's not get into 'whataboutism' here though. If you murder someone, it doesn't mean I can and say 'but Billbrown1982 did it too!'. If the trucks are braking incorrectly, that's bad. If Tesla is braking incorrectly that's also bad. This isn't about winners and losers. This is about a functional safe system.

In the case of Tesla I'd definitely argue in my experience it's getting worse. Lane keep itself is improving. But general functionality wise it's not been great for at least a year now. People who have traded in a USS car for a non-USS car have a clear and obvious example of Tesla's mindset. OK for software where I can just pick the revision I want to use. Not great for a car where I can't select a specific revision that works for me, and if a big mistake in software happens someone is getting hurt.

 

[Billbrown1982]

I’d rather pay £100 for a heated seat than £6800 for FSD - at least one does something

Yeah alright can't really argue with that

 

[MrBadger]

Ford Bluecruise....what a cop out honestly. Anyone can go and map out a road and then tell the car how to drive on it but what happens when something changes, roadworks, temporary lane movements etc and yet its being sold as some amazing all singing all dancing beat everyone to the punch autopilot replacement? Its not even close.

I use to think this was a problem, but as above, its not. Tesla uses maps too. One company, forget who they are now but probably MobilEye, was saying that they are constantly remapping their roads via their fleet. I think they pretty much have the ability to remap constantly, although not sure if this is a thing in practice. But as post above, most cars (including Tesla) its a hint, and not a primary source. It just makes for a better experience.

 

[yessuz]

I read a number of posts saying "UK roads are different to USA". I've been all over USA on business and I've seen just about every sort of road, including single track have-to-yield ... I'm not convinced that the UK has unique roads ... well Swindon Magic roundabout maybe.

Chuck's videos show "zone" housing around his home, where the access road is only just wide enough for two cars to pass (not the same as single track). FSD slows to a stop and pulls over rather than passing, as a driver would - which Chuck overrides if there is someone behind him. To me that's just one area where "FSD is not quite there yet". Single track will be a step-up from that (a wide load, on that sort of narrow road, would require the same "Find a passing place" action)

I've also seen his YouTube where his car stops behind a double parked car, with a double white dividing line, and then FSD decides to cross the double white line, to pass, once oncoming traffic clears, which is an example of a problem-solution that suggests to me that FSD will cope - although I have no idea when it will be "finished", watching YouTubes I see plenty of stuff that is just plain wrong. Latest one from Chuck is a dual carriageway overpass - with an off ramp slip down to lights / junction underneath. FSD, in one direction, slows to a stop on the overpass - as if it was on the slip down to the lights. Opposite direction FSD works fine, but whether the cause is map error, GPS off by a few feet ... or something else ... 99% isn't good enough, and I doubt that "Five-9s" is either. When will that be and how will FSD ever get there? ... I'll be wanting a lot of reassurance that that won't happen to me ...



Just to clarify from my perspective. I would not score it as "fine" (to have paid money for ...), just as "good enough" to use routinely. I engage AP as I join dual carriageway and then let it get on with it, and intervene if I feel the need (most commonly to tap accelerator to get it to get on with it after lane clears), but I look forward to it being better (e.g. the FSD promise delivered). Right now me plus AP is better than me on my own, and I'm pleased to have that extra scout-lookout which has saved me from some incidents over the years and one day might save my life.



That sums it up for me too



That just never happens for me. I engage it the moment I am on dual carriageway and leave it on. Finding out what is different would be useful, seems a pity, to me, that I (and some others on here) don't have a problem, yet others, such as yourself, do.

"Road enough for 2 cars to pass" is not the same as some countryside lane where it is enough space for ONE car to go and there are pockets for cars to pass.

Also UK has those mini roundabouts which are just a T junction (or crossroad) with 1m diameter circle drawn in the middle

I have a suspicion you never saw anything similar

 

[FastLaneJB]

And this all happened when the car transitioned to vision only. Before that the car worked fine in stop start traffic and autopilot was better overall.

Didn't have a Tesla then so wouldn't know but it's not like the car cannot see the car in front or know what speed it's going with Vision. The display shows the car in front just fine, I think this could easily work but it's just sloppy programming.

I did read that Tesla is going to delete something like 300k lines of Autopilot code to control the car and replace it with Neural Nets. I can just imagine a massive 300k if / then nested block to make this all work currently. Those in IT will know what I mean

 

[Pagemakers]

It can see the car but I don’t think it can judge the “rate of change” from the vehicle ahead by visual means only very well.

When it had Radar/LiDAR (whatever it was) it could determine this rate of change in zero visibility and accelerate and decelerate accordingly.

Now on vision only when the car in front accelerates the Tesla now accelerates like an old horse and and conversely when the car ahead brakes the Tesla behind slams on the anchors at a too late stage.

It’s like the Tesla has cataracts

Neural Nets: Oh yea, those things are behind the wiper operation and have billions of miles of learning.

 

[Zilla91]

I did read that Tesla is going to delete something like 300k lines of Autopilot code to control the car and replace it with Neural Nets.

Oh great, more artificial "intelligence".

 

[Fursty Ferret]

I did read that Tesla is going to delete something like 300k lines of Autopilot code to control the car and replace it with Neural Nets.

I also read this (an Elon tweet?) which made me wonder why there were continuing to roll out iterative builds of FSD.

Of course, the problem with using neural networks for the actual task of driving makes finding bugs and troubleshooting near enough impossible.

 

[Lee Davis]

finding bugs and troubleshooting near enough impossible.

Tesla has always found it impossible to find and fix bugs.

 

[Tony Hoyle]

- Summon - we require a "dead mans handle" approach, ie, any loss in communication and the car will stop. And Tesla chose to use a protocol where the comms can be eaily broken, even if temporarily, and so the car stops.
- Advanced Summon - I believe its actually possible in the UK, but we have a requirement that it needs to be a distance from a public road. Do we really want cars driving around the local Asda car park with nobody behind the wheel? Based on the videos I've seen, and that Tesla are still level 2 and driver is responsible, no thanks. It is just a matter of time before a kid gets run over in the US with advanced summon
- Lane change. We can (or could) do everything they do in the US with one stipulation, we have a requirement for the driver to acknowledge the action before it happens. Now this is L2 driving, the driver is still responsbile. If this was BMWs L2 etc we'd just tap the indicator and all would work. completing in the rquired time period and without issue. But Tesla make it difficult, and the Tesla implementation fails to complete in the required time and aborts.

I could go on.

Also worth pointing out there isn't anywhere in the rules a 'steering limt'. All the rules say is you can't go round corners too fast.. there's a limit to the amount of lateral force you can inflict on your passengers.

Tesla just implemented it in the worst way.. instead of slowing down to actually get around the corner, it gets halfway around, disengages with a beep and aims for the nearest hedge. That's not the fault of regulations, but shitty programming.

Similar to the way it gets halfway through a lane change and swerves suddenly (and often dangerously) back. Nothing in the regulations told them to handle it that way.. they just chose to do it the worst way possible.

 

[Drew57]

Tesla has always found it impossible to find and fix bugs.

They are breeding obvious.

 

[Fursty Ferret]

Similar to the way it gets halfway through a lane change and swerves suddenly (and often dangerously) back. Nothing in the regulations told them to handle it that way.. they just chose to do it the worst way possible.

Unbelievably that is actually how current UNECE guidance says that it should work.

 

[Pagemakers]

Unbelievably that is actually how current UNECE guidance says that it should work.

Just read the guidance. I never knew! Thanks for that info as crazy as it seems.