FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN.

From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included.

- Object permanence both temporal and spatial
- Moving from “bag of points” to objects in NN
- Creating a 3D vector representation of the environment all in NN
- Planner optimization using NN / Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS)
- Change from processed images to “photon count” / raw image
- Change from single image perception to surround video
- Merging of city, highway and parking lot stacks a.k.a. Single Stack

Lex Fridman Interview of Elon. Starting with FSD related topics.

Here is a detailed explanation of Beta 11 in "layman's language" by James Douma, interview done after Lex Podcast.

Here is the AI Day explanation by in 4 parts.

Deep Understanding Tesla FSD Part 1: HydraNet

From Theory to Reality, Analyze the Evolution of Tesla Full Self-Driving

saneryee-studio.medium.com

Here is a useful blog post asking a few questions to Tesla about AI day. The useful part comes in comparison of Tesla's methods with Waymo and others (detailed papers linked).

Twelve Questions about Tesla Autopilot Technologies Exposed at 2021 AI Day

On Aug. 19 2021, Telsa held an AI day , exposing more technologies about Autopilot , from perception, planning, data labeling, simulation…

yuhuang-63908.medium.com

 

[lascavarian]

how will they get around this? --- speed control, stop signs, etc

Seems very simple to me. Make it user selectable. I do want FSD to do a full and complete stop at stop signs. There are “slow” signs, “caution” signs. Stop signs mean stop.

It is not a human burden for FSD mode to simply stop. All this whining and rationalizing is childish IMO. There are many things to work out with NHTSA seems beyond silly to be crying to have to stop at a stop sign. It doesn’t even wear out brake pads on an EV. YMMV

 

[kpanda17]

Seems very simple to me. Make it user selectable. I do want FSD to do a full and complete stop at stop signs. There are “slow” signs, “caution” signs. Stop signs mean stop.

It is not a human burden for FSD mode to simply stop. All this whining and rationalizing is childish IMO. There are many things to work out with NHTSA seems beyond silly to be crying to have to stop at a stop sign. It doesn’t even wear out brake pads on an EV. YMMV

In front of a cop or pedestrian waiting, there is only one way to stop

 

[Mardak]

Source? Heard from where?

"Maintaining speed for traffic flow" has been around since 11.4.6, and 11.4.7 newly highlights the maintained set speed in blue.

 

[kpanda17]

"Maintaining speed for traffic flow" has been around since 11.4.6, and 11.4.7 newly highlights the maintained set speed in blue.

Ok so soon, maybe receive this wrrk
But the stopping on the RR crossing and intersections must get fixed

 

[sleepydoc]

For me it seems like the value of FSD beta does seem to have gone significantly up after the livestream. I understand why Elon won't reduce the price to buy FSD outright and is pushing more people to subscribe as well.

Subscription is actually a more sustainable model for something like FSD that requires significant ongoing development and maintenance.

 

[sleepydoc]

In front of a cop or pedestrian waiting, there is only one way to stop

FSD was programmed not to do a rolling stop if a pedestrian was present.

It seems like a lot of people can’t understand why the NHTSA had issues with rolling stops.

The law is clear - you are required to come to a complete stop. It’s also clear that most people (Or anyone in TX) don’t do this routinely. The people at NHTSA clearly know this, too. The problem is that if they allow Tesla to do rolling stops ‘like everyone else does’ they are giving overt approval for a self driving system to break the law. Not only that, they are setting up a conflict between a federal agency and local laws. Unless they create a specific set of exceptions for FSD systems they have no other choice.

 

[Tronguy]

FSD was programmed not to do a rolling stop if a pedestrian was present.

It seems like a lot of people can’t understand why the NHTSA had issues with rolling stops.

The law is clear - you are required to come to a complete stop. It’s also clear that most people (Or anyone in TX) don’t do this routinely. The people at NHTSA clearly know this, too. The problem is that if they allow Tesla to do rolling stops ‘like everyone else does’ they are giving overt approval for a self driving system to break the law. Not only that, they are setting up a conflict between a federal agency and local laws. Unless they create a specific set of exceptions for FSD systems they have no other choice.

Yup, absolutely correct analysis.

But I have to wonder. The bit about, "no one normal does a full stop" vs. the law that says, "everybody must come to a full stop." is an obvious conflict. Heck, if cops enforced that particular traffic regulation, which they could if they wanted to, they'd flood the traffic court and there'd be heck to pay. (Any traffic cops on this thread want to make a comment? Love to hear it.)

The wondering part is, though, that this is one corner of the traffic regulations where, if it's enforced, either by cop or FSD-b, it's unlikely on first glance to result in people getting killed. What if there's some other corner of the traffic regulations that everybody violates because not doing so would be unsafe. As in, people getting killed.

Here's one: In NJ, there appears to be some highway construction regulation that has the people in yellow vests putting up signs saying, "Speed limit - 45 mph", one to several miles short of the actual construction, when the nominal speed limit is 55 and the average speed is 60. If 10% of the cars suddenly slow to 45.. one of the reasons that limited access highways are safer than local roads is that everybody is traveling at roughly the same speed. What are the numbers if 10% suddenly are going slower? May not cause an accident right off, but statistics will catch up with the unwary.

Of course, the Safety Engineers will scream, "But everybody SHOULD be going 45!" Um. Exhibit one: "Everybody" not doing that.

 

[JulienW]

I have a busy 3 way stop (all 4 lanes) near my condo I must go through at least a couple of times a day. I MUST press the accelerator to have any chance. There is no way to come to a full stop with hesitation. If so the next person will roll on in front of you, then the next in queue will go ahead and the person behind you will start honking. It is hopeless as is.

These people found one person who did.

 

[sleepydoc]

Yup, absolutely correct analysis.

But I have to wonder. The bit about, "no one normal does a full stop" vs. the law that says, "everybody must come to a full stop." is an obvious conflict. Heck, if cops enforced that particular traffic regulation, which they could if they wanted to, they'd flood the traffic court and there'd be heck to pay. (Any traffic cops on this thread want to make a comment? Love to hear it.)

The wondering part is, though, that this is one corner of the traffic regulations where, if it's enforced, either by cop or FSD-b, it's unlikely on first glance to result in people getting killed. What if there's some other corner of the traffic regulations that everybody violates because not doing so would be unsafe. As in, people getting killed.

Here's one: In NJ, there appears to be some highway construction regulation that has the people in yellow vests putting up signs saying, "Speed limit - 45 mph", one to several miles short of the actual construction, when the nominal speed limit is 55 and the average speed is 60. If 10% of the cars suddenly slow to 45.. one of the reasons that limited access highways are safer than local roads is that everybody is traveling at roughly the same speed. What are the numbers if 10% suddenly are going slower? May not cause an accident right off, but statistics will catch up with the unwary.

Of course, the Safety Engineers will scream, "But everybody SHOULD be going 45!" Um. Exhibit one: "Everybody" not doing that.

Not a lawyer, politician or cop, but there are likely several reasons.

Enforceability - ‘complete stop’ is a very clear standard. Stopped is stopped. If they were to say ’slow to less than 5 mph’ it would be much more difficult to enforce. As it is, the police can choose not to stop someone that has slowed to 4 MPH but if there’s a pedestrian, other cars, etc or if someone only slows to a degree that is not safe it gives them clear cause to cite the driver.

As a practical matter, if the law said 5mph then people would only be slowing to 10 mph which causes even more issues. Not unlike setting the speed limit at 55 knowing people will drive 60.

Simplicity comes into play, too. If you start adding conditions like ‘must slow to 10 MPH but must come to a complete stop if other cars or pedestrians are present’ you get people driving over pedestrians crossing because they ‘didn’t see them’ and were planning on flying though at 15 MPH.

 

[rlsd]

Similar issue to stop sign: What is the percentage of people stopping the car near the curb when hearing the fire truck siren?

And what is the percentage of people stopping the car when seeing a pedestrian wanting to cross the street (not at an intersection).

When I was in Boston the cars did not stop for me until I put my feet on the street surface.

 

[Rocinante777]

I have a busy 3 way stop (all 4 lanes) near my condo I must go through at least a couple of times a day. I MUST press the accelerator to have any chance. There is no way to come to a full stop with hesitation. If so the next person will roll on in front of you, then the next in queue will go ahead and the person behind you will start honking. It is hopeless as is.

These people found one person who did.

Wow, I think 80% of those people would get ticketed in my neighborhood if there was a cop present. More were in the "running a stop sign" category than the "rolling stop" category.

 

[JulienW]

Wow, I think 80% of those people would get ticketed in my neighborhood if there was a cop present. More were in the "running a stop sign" category than the "rolling stop" category.

...and I bet you don't live in high rise the middle of Dallas or Houston like I do in the middle of Atlanta. Much different prospective and there are not police on every corner "looking" for Stop sign rollers in large metro areas.

EDIT: After re-reading think I may have misinterpreted your post and it was more about the Youtube video posted as an example than specifically my 3-way Stop sign case.

 

[Supcom]

But I have to wonder. The bit about, "no one normal does a full stop" vs. the law that says, "everybody must come to a full stop." is an obvious conflict. Heck, if cops enforced that particular traffic regulation, which they could if they wanted to, they'd flood the traffic court and there'd be heck to pay.

I regularly see a cop sitting near a residential intersection in my neighborhood enforcing stop sign laws. The only ones paying heck are the motorists who didn't see the cop.

Very few people go to court over minor traffic offenses. In my state, they pay the fees and take defensive driving.

 

[drtimhill]

I couldn’t drive for 5 minutes in Seattle without my car doing something actually dangerous. I’ve posted videos of this. The car running red lights, stopping for red lights and then starting to go, slamming its brakes on because it can’t determine the car has enough room etc. It’s crap.

And yet I've had a lot of drives in Seattle where the car drives very well indeed, and certainly does not do anything dangerous. To be sure, there are some absurd intersections in the city, where even humans get confused (I certainly do), but I would not expect the car to do well in those cases (and it still amazes me that the traffic planners think those intersections are a good idea).

 

[Kablooie]

In front of a cop or pedestrian waiting, there is only one way to stop

There is a Tesla option called the California stop. It allows the car to slow to a few miles an hour at a stop sign if no one is around. I think it’s was was enabled before. If a pedestrian is waiting ir would come to a complete stop. It should be made a user option because I’m tired of being honked at by the car behind me. Aggravating other drivers is the opposite of a safety feature.

 

[WilliamG]

And yet I've had a lot of drives in Seattle where the car drives very well indeed, and certainly does not do anything dangerous. To be sure, there are some absurd intersections in the city, where even humans get confused (I certainly do), but I would not expect the car to do well in those cases (and it still amazes me that the traffic planners think those intersections are a good idea).

I turned it on this evening to demo to a friend and it failed within 30 seconds. I had to disengage turning right on red as it was about to make the turn as the opposing traffic was turning left on their green arrow. Just awful.

 

[drtimhill]

I turned it on this evening to demo to a friend and it failed within 30 seconds. I had to disengage turning right on red as it was about to make the turn as the opposing traffic was turning left on their green arrow. Just awful.

And your point is... ?

 

[WilliamG]

And your point is... ?

And your point is… ?

 

[Hayseed_MS]

And your point is... ?

And your point is… ?

And my point is?

 

[Buckminster]

And my point is?