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FSD At Today's $15,000 Asking. Any Idea What Tesla Might Be Asking For 1 Year From Now?
TL;DR - At the least, it will rise to at least $20k and high likelihood of $25 to $30k if they can get to 99.9% reliability (i.e. able to do several end to end local drives without an intervention)

Longer version...
Need to see the next release as the new architecture shown at AI day demonstrated they can scale to solve FSD, but how long will that take? We need another data point to formulate a basic trend.

10.63.3 is supposed to have major updates to architecture, so what that means for performance sounds good, but remains to be seen.

Since 2.2 and 2.3 were based on this we've seen amazing improvements (i.e. when there is a creep wall, my turns have worked every time, not perfect, but they worked).

If the 10.69.3 release can show a creep wall at all intersections, including roundabouts (they could be essentially solved as well) then the major things we have remaining is picking the correct lane 'earlier' and construction zones.
 
Thanks for such an informitive post. I like to ask a few questions that will help me understand FSDb better.

Has the comfort of the drive improved?

Is phantom braking a problem for you still?

How many disengagement do you have only a daily basis and has that improved?

I think these answers are going to depend on how you use it.

I use FSDb and really enjoy it. The driving I do around here is often following individual one-lane-in-each-direction roads for several miles at a time and between other cars. I don't especially enjoy that part of the driving, just lurking behind the car in front of me at a fixed distance, and I let FSDb handle that.

I often "intervene" for turns. Usually for one of two reasons: 1. there's a car behind me and I feel bad for low long FSD takes to stop at a stop sign and/or make a turn compared to a human, or 2. there's oncoming traffic and I can turn through a reasonable gap but FSD would wait for an extra extra large gap. I don't mind this. I don't mind letting FSDb do the boring parts and I'll make quicker turns in between. It will be nice if FSDb gets aggressive enough on turns that I don't feel inclined to take over, but in the mean time it's still good enough that I choose to use it.

Pretty much the only phantom braking events I get are explainable -- one place it slows used to have a stop sign that's now removed (it was for the duration of a multi-month construction project), sometimes it slows for train crossing signals that are unlit, sometimes for stop signs that are at an angle to the road and therefore partially facing the car (either due to a merging road or a bent signpost). I wish they'd fix that stuff but it's not like it's completely out of the blue.

There are still some other minor issues. One place the car regularly gives the loud beeps, as if for a collision warning, though apparently just due to the road appearance -- it happens with no traffic around, it shows no message or red object, and it happens with FSD off, just somehow that bit of road freaks it out.

The only real "safety" concern I'd have is that sometimes it's so slow to make a left turn that I feel the oncoming traffic would have to slow down to avoid a collision (so I "intervene" by pressing the accelerator). At times like that, I think, it's been obvious to me for 5 seconds that there was a turning opportunity. Why did it wait 4.5 seconds to reach the same conclusion, and then execute a slow turn? Why couldn't it have recognized the turning opportunity before I did and acted promptly? Sometimes I get that at a 3-way or 4-way stop and I worry it's taking so long that the other car(s) will decide I'm waiting for them and decide to go, just when FSD finally gets off its butt to move.

All this feels surmountable -- I feel like in 6-12 months I could quit intervening at all on almost all drives, if the stuff I care about was anywhere near the top of their priority list (I never do Chuck Cook turns and very rarely roundabouts or city centers, so there's plenty they may care about that I don't).

But after that there's still a ton of work to reach robotaxi. We do a lot of kid stuff, involving schools or facilities with multiple doors, street entrances, and parking lots, complex car pickup/dropoff lines, waiting for people to come out, etc. Perfect driving point to point is far from enough.
 
Thanks for such an informitive post. I like to ask a few questions that will help me understand FSDb better.

Has the comfort of the drive improved?
Yes, comfort has improved, but as is typical with FSDb and neural net training, you see regressions in unexpected places. So a turn that was historically flawless can suddenly get jerky in the next release, or the car no longer makes the turn because it now incorrectly picks the wrong lane to be in, etc. These regressions make it very difficult to objectively assess how FSDb is improving. Not to mention variations in behavior within the same day. Different traffic pattern, shadows, time-of-day, weather, etc. can all change FSD behavior at a given spot.

While overall comfort has improved, I would not say FSD is comfortable, particularly in denser traffic conditions. It also slows for stops signs way early, then slowly creeps to the stop sign, stops again, then creeps slowly to make a turn, even if there are no cars around. The overall maneuver is very comfortable, but it's also super annoying if you're paying attention and wondering why it requires 20 seconds to stop for a sign and make a right turn. Not to mention this would piss off whoever is following you. In my area, roads and intersections can be extremely weird, and FSDb can't handle these at all. Such is driving life in the northeast US. FSDb should work better in most other areas of the US.

Is phantom braking a problem for you still?

It's important to remember that phantom braking is not a single discreet problem to be eliminated. It represents thousands of conditions where the car thinks it ought to brake for safety when there was no actual risk. I'll go through some examples:

1) the transition from radar to vision-only: a lot of people like to scapegoat the loss of radar as the cause for phantom braking on the highway. This has not been my experience. There was plenty of PB during the years I used AP on the highway with radar, particularly at overpasses and big highway overhead signage. These were uncomfortable and hard brakes because the car thought I was about to hit a wall. All of that went away for me as soon as I got onto FSDb, which doesn't rely on the radar. These days I have maybe 1 phantom braking incident per month, and based on my commute, that comes out to 1 PB per ~2000 miles. PB on the highway is now typically caused by a car in an adjacent lane drifting toward my lane, and my car thinks it might pass into my lane, so it brakes. It can happen before you even notice or feel like there's a threat. To me, this is just a tuning issue. It's probably a bit sensitive.

2) off the highway, PB is much higher. It was quite bad in the earlier versions of FSD, but it has gotten better. But as I said before, at any version, you can have regressions, and the latest 10.69.x versions have introduced a lot of PB, specifically on 2-lane roads when there is oncoming traffic. Car just gets nervous at the oncoming car, even if they are well within their lane. Car brakes a lot more for pedestrians and other vulnerable road users. Musk did come out on twitter to say that due to huge code changes, FSD is basically set in super-timid mode, which explains this particular class of PB. But what is more common on local roads are "whimsical hesitations," a subclass of phantom braking where the car eases off its constant speed as if it's nervous about something, then resumes its speed. Sometimes these could be attributed to tree shadows, but they happened on overcast days too. Sometimes FSDb will mistaken a mailbox as a person and brakes hard. A low hanging tree branch can confuse it sometimes too. Overall, things are improving though. But you should expect a decent amount of PB even when FSDb is released wide.

How many disengagement do you have only a daily basis and has that improved?

I don't find disengagements to be a good measure of FSD driving performance, mainly because it depends on how tolerant I feel on a given day for FSDb's idiosyncracies, or how many people are around me. For example, if I'm driving at night, and not a lot of people are around, I'll let FSD take a 20-second right turn without intervening. If there's someone behind me, I'll use the accel to make the car go. If FSDb cuts the corner while turning, I might not do anything if there's no one around, but if there's someone already on the road I'm turning on, I may disengage if FSDb actions would make that other driver nervous. FSDb also likes to excessively use the blinkers and then not act on them. Unfortunately I can't do much about those in terms of pissing off other drivers. As far as lane changes go, I'll disengage if I feel like FSD is picking the wrong lane, or if it's picking the correct lane too quickly. A lot of this will depend on your local driving culture. In the Boston metro area, people don't have a lot of tolerance for stupidity, and FSD is frequently way too timid (and stupid).

But to try to answer your question: for easy drives, I would say disengagements are def trending in the right direction. In tricky areas, like anywhere inside the I-95 perimeter of Boston, expect tons of disengagements on the local roads. Multiple disengagements per mile. FWIW, having to disengage for safety-level events (like collisions) is dropping.


The other reason I'm not so bullish on FSD for robotaxi operation is that the demand for robotaxis are highest in the cities. That's also where driving the the most crazy and aggressive. It needs to know exactly what lane to be in at the right time; it cannot wait to read the lines painted on a road to make a decision. Otherwise, the car will be stuck in the wrong lane and you'll miss your turn. It need to know how to deal with other drivers that are actively working against you just because. If you're not in the right lane, you have to fight to get into it. FSD will likely need to learn aggressive maneuvers, like how to wedge itself in to a lane full of stationary cars.
 
I think these answers are going to depend on how you use it.

I use FSDb and really enjoy it. The driving I do around here is often following individual one-lane-in-each-direction roads for several miles at a time and between other cars. I don't especially enjoy that part of the driving, just lurking behind the car in front of me at a fixed distance, and I let FSDb handle that.

I often "intervene" for turns. Usually for one of two reasons: 1. there's a car behind me and I feel bad for low long FSD takes to stop at a stop sign and/or make a turn compared to a human, or 2. there's oncoming traffic and I can turn through a reasonable gap but FSD would wait for an extra extra large gap. I don't mind this. I don't mind letting FSDb do the boring parts and I'll make quicker turns in between. It will be nice if FSDb gets aggressive enough on turns that I don't feel inclined to take over, but in the mean time it's still good enough that I choose to use it.

Pretty much the only phantom braking events I get are explainable -- one place it slows used to have a stop sign that's now removed (it was for the duration of a multi-month construction project), sometimes it slows for train crossing signals that are unlit, sometimes for stop signs that are at an angle to the road and therefore partially facing the car (either due to a merging road or a bent signpost). I wish they'd fix that stuff but it's not like it's completely out of the blue.

There are still some other minor issues. One place the car regularly gives the loud beeps, as if for a collision warning, though apparently just due to the road appearance -- it happens with no traffic around, it shows no message or red object, and it happens with FSD off, just somehow that bit of road freaks it out.

The only real "safety" concern I'd have is that sometimes it's so slow to make a left turn that I feel the oncoming traffic would have to slow down to avoid a collision (so I "intervene" by pressing the accelerator). At times like that, I think, it's been obvious to me for 5 seconds that there was a turning opportunity. Why did it wait 4.5 seconds to reach the same conclusion, and then execute a slow turn? Why couldn't it have recognized the turning opportunity before I did and acted promptly? Sometimes I get that at a 3-way or 4-way stop and I worry it's taking so long that the other car(s) will decide I'm waiting for them and decide to go, just when FSD finally gets off its butt to move.

All this feels surmountable -- I feel like in 6-12 months I could quit intervening at all on almost all drives, if the stuff I care about was anywhere near the top of their priority list (I never do Chuck Cook turns and very rarely roundabouts or city centers, so there's plenty they may care about that I don't).

But after that there's still a ton of work to reach robotaxi. We do a lot of kid stuff, involving schools or facilities with multiple doors, street entrances, and parking lots, complex car pickup/dropoff lines, waiting for people to come out, etc. Perfect driving point to point is far from enough.
Great feedback! And I'll comment on it in the FSD thread... (MODs - Would be great if this and other feedback posts could be moved to our FSD thread and I'll get the discussion going there)
 
I think these answers are going to depend on how you use it.

I use FSDb and really enjoy it. The driving I do around here is often following individual one-lane-in-each-direction roads for several miles at a time and between other cars. I don't especially enjoy that part of the driving, just lurking behind the car in front of me at a fixed distance, and I let FSDb handle that.

I often "intervene" for turns. Usually for one of two reasons: 1. there's a car behind me and I feel bad for low long FSD takes to stop at a stop sign and/or make a turn compared to a human, or 2. there's oncoming traffic and I can turn through a reasonable gap but FSD would wait for an extra extra large gap. I don't mind this. I don't mind letting FSDb do the boring parts and I'll make quicker turns in between. It will be nice if FSDb gets aggressive enough on turns that I don't feel inclined to take over, but in the mean time it's still good enough that I choose to use it.

Pretty much the only phantom braking events I get are explainable -- one place it slows used to have a stop sign that's now removed (it was for the duration of a multi-month construction project), sometimes it slows for train crossing signals that are unlit, sometimes for stop signs that are at an angle to the road and therefore partially facing the car (either due to a merging road or a bent signpost). I wish they'd fix that stuff but it's not like it's completely out of the blue.

There are still some other minor issues. One place the car regularly gives the loud beeps, as if for a collision warning, though apparently just due to the road appearance -- it happens with no traffic around, it shows no message or red object, and it happens with FSD off, just somehow that bit of road freaks it out.

The only real "safety" concern I'd have is that sometimes it's so slow to make a left turn that I feel the oncoming traffic would have to slow down to avoid a collision (so I "intervene" by pressing the accelerator). At times like that, I think, it's been obvious to me for 5 seconds that there was a turning opportunity. Why did it wait 4.5 seconds to reach the same conclusion, and then execute a slow turn? Why couldn't it have recognized the turning opportunity before I did and acted promptly? Sometimes I get that at a 3-way or 4-way stop and I worry it's taking so long that the other car(s) will decide I'm waiting for them and decide to go, just when FSD finally gets off its butt to move.

All this feels surmountable -- I feel like in 6-12 months I could quit intervening at all on almost all drives, if the stuff I care about was anywhere near the top of their priority list (I never do Chuck Cook turns and very rarely roundabouts or city centers, so there's plenty they may care about that I don't).

But after that there's still a ton of work to reach robotaxi. We do a lot of kid stuff, involving schools or facilities with multiple doors, street entrances, and parking lots, complex car pickup/dropoff lines, waiting for people to come out, etc. Perfect driving point to point is far from enough.
Great feedback and I'm hoping that this helps understand what is going on, what is most likely to fix things and what is largely unknown...

Random freak outs with FSD on/off - This happens to me as well and could be a number of things, but the highest likelihood (when lines are good and your just driving along without tight bends) is that the system is in a 'halt' state or gets into a bad state. Next, it could be a misinterpretation of surroundings (like you suggest) and it is my hope that this is the root cause of all these instances. These would be much easier to triage. Another thing it could be is bad map data that is being fed into the realtime camera system. This is a possiblity, but it have to occur at the same place and the exact same thing would always have to occur. I've experienced this in a few places where I drive which causes the car to come to a complete stop where there is no intersection or stop sign (but there used to be). Also, I have new roundabouts which are NOT in the map data.

I should say that I don't believe that the occupancy map or flow is causing ghosting issues. Maybe there is another issue that is being caused by the occupancy map/flow NN that is a result of the NN being confused, but this is highly unlikely. Shadows was the culprit for the segmentation computer vision NN, but this is no longer used as occupancy is now used.

Slow to make turns - This is most likely the result of poor lane connectivity, which results in the neural planner not being confident enough to make decisions quickly. In a perfect intersection, ego (your car) comes to a complete stop (well, it is 1 MPH), 10ms later occupancy map/flow determines that no targets (cars, VRUs..etc) are present and there is no dynamic movement, 50ms after that the neural planner plans a path and controls can then run and move the car. Ego should start moving in <1/10th of a second. The problem is that when lane connectivity is uncertain (i.e. it is not being fed to the real-time system in vector space), the neural planner as only the camera to build its view of the world and it is much less confident to make 90 degree turns. And it tends to re-plan quite a bit which causes the wheel to move quickly (high jerkiness).

I have a 4 way stop where the cameras cannot see the lane start when making a left as it is occluded by a vehicle trying to make a left. The planner actually plans a path into the oncoming car as it starts to move. Not good. But as ego starts to move forward the cameras can see the lane start and it plans a path accordingly.

Robotaxi thoughts - Tesla can have a Robotaxi system that allows for different types of destinations. For instance, in your school example, it wouldn't drop off inside the school area, but at the nearest safe location out of the flow of traffic, much like Uber/Lyft. Or, potentially, put hazards on while a stop is being made. And Robotaxi would be for adults, not for kids. Lots of other thoughts here...but in short, will not be for every destination at first. Grocery stores are likely as it just needs to find a parking spot or put hazards on. Let's see how well re-vamped smart summon is to see how far along they've come. The current smart summon is unusable for me.
 
One of the faults of recent FSD beta releases is that, for me, there's a spot on a two lane divided street where my car consistently comes to a complete stop. It's at an intersection, but there's no reason to stop, or even slow down.

What I just found out, driving my wife's car, is that autopilot in 2022.20.9 (not FSD beta) does the same thing. So does that mean it's an error in the map?
 
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TL;DR - At the least, it will rise to at least $20k and high likelihood of $25 to $30k if they can get to 99.9% reliability (i.e. able to do several end to end local drives without an intervention)

Longer version...
Need to see the next release as the new architecture shown at AI day demonstrated they can scale to solve FSD, but how long will that take? We need another data point to formulate a basic trend.

10.63.3 is supposed to have major updates to architecture, so what that means for performance sounds good, but remains to be seen.

Since 2.2 and 2.3 were based on this we've seen amazing improvements (i.e. when there is a creep wall, my turns have worked every time, not perfect, but they worked).

If the 10.69.3 release can show a creep wall at all intersections, including roundabouts (they could be essentially solved as well) then the major things we have remaining is picking the correct lane 'earlier' and construction zones.
FSD has come close to getting me a ticket several times in school zones, twice mistaking the line of legally slow cars in that school zone as an opportunity to move over to another lane, pass up the "slot traffic", and accelerate to the "speed limit". Until this is fixed, Robo Taxi will not fly. As a shareholder, I do not want to have to ever see a headline like "Robo Taxi kills school child in active school zone".
 
FSD has come close to getting me a ticket several times in school zones, twice mistaking the line of legally slow cars in that school zone as an opportunity to move over to another lane, pass up the "slot traffic", and accelerate to the "speed limit". Until this is fixed, Robo Taxi will not fly. As a shareholder, I do not want to have to ever see a headline like "Robo Taxi kills school child in active school zone".
I wouldn't want that headline either so I don't use it in school zones. I'm waiting until the release notes indicate that these areas are better supported.

I use it in places where it should work but has issues in order to provide the team with valuable feedback. Construction zones is also difficult/not well supported in current builds.
 
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TL;DR - At the least, it will rise to at least $20k and high likelihood of $25 to $30k if they can get to 99.9% reliability (i.e. able to do several end to end local drives without an intervention)

Longer version...
Need to see the next release as the new architecture shown at AI day demonstrated they can scale to solve FSD, but how long will that take? We need another data point to formulate a basic trend.

10.63.3 is supposed to have major updates to architecture, so what that means for performance sounds good, but remains to be seen.

Since 2.2 and 2.3 were based on this we've seen amazing improvements (i.e. when there is a creep wall, my turns have worked every time, not perfect, but they worked).

If the 10.69.3 release can show a creep wall at all intersections, including roundabouts (they could be essentially solved as well) then the major things we have remaining is picking the correct lane 'earlier' and construction zones.
Thank You!
 
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One of the faults of recent FSD beta releases is that, for me, there's a spot on a two lane divided street where my car consistently comes to a complete stop. It's at an intersection, but there's no reason to stop, or even slow down.

What I just found out, driving my wife's car, is that autopilot in 2022.20.9 (not FSD beta) does the same thing. So does that mean it's an error in the map?
Yes unfortunately there seems to be a number of those cases. Chuck Cook identified one when approaching two distant traffic light controlled intersections. It always slows.

I have a local intersection where FSDb comes to a complete stop same as yours. I'm surprised the Tesla team hasn't trapped/debugged all these failed scenarios. On the bright side it sounds like the AI team is working on simulated scenarios for improved testing.
 
I wouldn't want that headline either so I don't use it in school zones. I'm waiting until the release notes indicate that these areas are better supported.

I use it in places where it should work but has issues in order to provide the team with valuable feedback. Construction zones is also difficult/not well supported in current builds.

This current build is very cautious around pedestrians. I described a recent experience I had where I was almost rear-ended because FSD Beta braked for two teenagers that none of the other drivers around me noticed were trying to cross: FSD Beta 10.69
 
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I do wish FSD would read all road signs. Mostly lane selection signs (which around here are often visible before markings on the road, especially with traffic), school zone signs, and distinguishing between “35 mph” and “35 mph ahead“. Also perhaps low-speed curve ahead signs. But really, there can’t be so many kinds of road signs that it couldn’t be pretty easy to train for 90-95% of them. That seems like a key part of driving with vision, and could help improve the lane selection/path planner and eliminate errors due to bogus map data.
 
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One of the faults of recent FSD beta releases is that, for me, there's a spot on a two lane divided street where my car consistently comes to a complete stop. It's at an intersection, but there's no reason to stop, or even slow down.

What I just found out, driving my wife's car, is that autopilot in 2022.20.9 (not FSD beta) does the same thing. So does that mean it's an error in the map?
Most likely a map error. But more importantly demonstrates that Tesla is augmenting the real time camera system with map data, which is a big change and has not happened before. I'd bet these will be nearly gone with the next build as it is an obvious issue after the build went to a wide audience. Also, easy to filter, aggregate this data and then train it out of the model.
 
I do wish FSD would read all road signs. Mostly lane selection signs (which around here are often visible before markings on the road, especially with traffic), school zone signs, and distinguishing between “35 mph” and “35 mph ahead“. Also perhaps low-speed curve ahead signs. But really, there can’t be so many kinds of road signs that it couldn’t be pretty easy to train for 90-95% of them. That seems like a key part of driving with vision, and could help improve the lane selection/path planner and eliminate errors due to bogus map data.
Agree and realize this is a big training problem. Reading the sign is the easy part, training in the proper behavior is more tricky. Will be awesome when the release notes start calling out %'s of new road signs supported.
 
Agree and realize this is a big training problem. Reading the sign is the easy part, training in the proper behavior is more tricky. Will be awesome when the release notes start calling out %'s of new road signs supported.

Lane selection signs can be needlessly complex. I pass this particular sign on my commute. Humans regularly misinterpret it, and the misinterpretation is costly because there's a barrier separating the two lanes immediately after the turn:

1666361563715.png
 
Lane selection signs can be needlessly complex. I pass this particular sign on my commute. Humans regularly misinterpret it, and the misinterpretation is costly because there's a barrier separating the two lanes immediately after the turn:

View attachment 866116
Yeah, on that pic I’d be happy if it recognized the white sign (and ok if it ignored the green one).

And I’d be happy if initially the (common; top 90-95%) signs were recognized and displayed on the visualization… even if it takes a bit longer to incorporate that data into the path planner. We’d at least see the progress and know it’s coming.
 
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Yeah, on that pic I’d be happy if it recognized the white sign (and ok if it ignored the green one).

And I’d be happy if initially the (common; top 90-95%) signs were recognized and displayed on the visualization… even if it takes a bit longer to incorporate that data into the path planner. We’d at least see the progress and know it’s coming.
Dirty Tesla has this sign which I haven't seen before...How would a human know what the new speed limit is? The map speed limit data may have it, but how does the human know? Why not just display the new speed limit? Weirdness.

 
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FYI, FSD Beta v10.69.2.3 can now perform U-Turns: :D

Before anyone watches it and says, that it needed help with the throttle, well, yes it did.

But, it does U-turns unassisted, as I can personally attest and have video proof (it failed once and succeeded once; to be clear) as the steering wheel is horribly jerky and path planning showed a left at first and then switched to a u-turn. I'm honestly surprised nobody else has experienced this yet.